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[Invisible Church] Evans/Nachimson Debate
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John Henry
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Apr 24, 2005 22:07 PDT
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PART ONE
The END of your SEARCH for an IMAGINARY CHURCH
(Sequel Debate to the Above – Evans versus Nachimson)
Here is the most unusual and incredible discussion that you
have ever read, regarding the invisible, mystical church of all believers.
For the most part, except for some irresistible annotations of mine to
Jeffrey Nachimson’s last letter at the climax of the discussion, we have
allowed Jeff Nachimson, alleged Baptist “preacher” from Victory Baptist
Church of Duncan, Oklahoma to have his say in many handwritten pages. (See
Composite Reply with annotations of Jeffrey Nachimson’s letters at the end.)
Note the insults and name calling by rude novice, whose
combative character has not changed to date July 17, 2004, several years
later in recent confrontations with myself and some others. His cryptic
interpretation of Bible passages should be read by every Bible believing
Baptist, if for nothing else but to realize the lengths that such Invisible
Church MYSTICS will go to in order to prove something exists that does not
exist. We have reproduced, for permission’s sake, the entire correspondence
at Jeffrey D. Nachimson’s insistence. This started with a handwritten
letter (4/9/97) from Jeffrey Nachimson, a cocky and arrogant young man, who
is unhappy over an article of mine in the “Flaming Torch.” Jeff’s hand
written letters typed by Herb Evans. – Herb Evans
4/9/97
Herb Evans,
“The word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. “Out of
that 117, times it is used as referring to a Local church. Ten times it is
a reference to the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord
Jesus Christ, of which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1
Tim. 3:15, etc...) “The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly
called out front the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus
Christ) is the promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit on
the throne of David. This local church is converted to an organic living
Body at Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at Pentecost
and from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not only is the
Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the world, dying on
the cross and making a blood atonement that “taketh away the sin of the
world.” (The Local Church, _______) The greatest stumbling block for the
“Briders” is the fact that in the early days of the church all of the Body
(all of the saved people) met in the same Local assembly. This makes it
look like the local assembly is the “Body” (ibid, pg. ___).
This is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole
Bible full to give. Answer this, please. How can one discuss the locality
or universality or both concerning the “church” if the church is the “body”
and “Baptism” puts a man into the “Body.” If he’s saved, of course. Observe
closely. Acts 2:47 - “. . . And the Lord added to the church daily such as
should be saved.”
Now look at Acts 5:14 - “And believers were the more added to
the Lord, multitudes both men and women.” Well, I’ll declare, people are
added to the church and added to the Lord. What does it mean to be “In
Christ?” In his “body,” perhaps? Luke did not write these verses until the
apostle of the Body “Mystery” has been with him for nearly ten years. When
Luke says “added to the Lord” he has 1 Corinthians 12:13 right in front of
him. Luke equates “church” with the “Lord” in his writing, while reading
Gal. 2-3 and 1 Cor. 12. Guess what, “but he that is joined unto
the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17). How does that happen? Joining a
local New Testament Baptist Church? I think not! See the answer in (1 Cor.
12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom 6:1-6; and 1 Cor 12:13; and Col 2:9-14. The Lord
called out his church in Matthew 10. One member turns out to be an infidel
(Thomas), one cusses and swears before unsaved people (Peter), and the
treasurer of the church is a devil (Judas, John 6). This is not the “body
of Christ who (sic) members are member of his body, of his flesh, and of
his bones” (Eph. 5).
Since, I’ve already mentioned Ephesians 5, let me make an
interesting point. So according to you and your “Baptist Bride,” Eph 5:23
applies to the individual husband - wife relationship, recapitulating
Christ as the head of each assembly? Right? Then how do you justify one
head for each wife? Verse 25 - “Husbands (plural), love your wives (plural)
even as Christ (singular) also loved the church (singular), and gave
himself for it (singular)”; The reference is the husband - wife
relationship, man. After all, Christ is one body, is he not (1 Cor. 12:12)?
Water baptism doesn’t accomplish verse 30, but the Spirit baptism does!
(Eph. 4:5). Here’s a good quote, Herb. “The verse settles beyond any
question the matter of the local church and “the church which is His body.”
To say that Christ died for the local church would be nonsense. (Commentary
on ______, _____, ____. Pg. _____. ___ was referring to Eph. 5:25 by the way.
The local church is the gathering together of certain members
of the body of Christ in a specific locality. Sometimes, there is more than
one local church in each locality. See Gal. 1:2; Acts 20; Phil. 1:1 for
starters. Isn’t it peculiar that Ephesians 1:1 is addressed to “the saints
which are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”:, but Paul refers
to “the church” (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 5:23, 25, 30). Galatians 1:13 is also a
reference to “the body of Christ.” If you think it’s just “the church of
Jerusalem” why don’t you read Acts 8:1-3 with Acts 9:31, and tell me “what
that meaneth.
I’ll tell you what, Herb. Instead of sending you 20 pages,
I’ll leave you at this point to respond. If you do, we’ll continue. If not
O.K. Whatever you want. In further correspondence I’ll cover 1 Cor. 12;
Gal. 3:26; Eph. 2: 1 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 10: 1 Cor 6: 1 Thess 1-2; Matthew
16:16-18 (be sure and get a head start by studying “the gates of hell shall
not PREVAIL AGAINST IT:’ Eph.3; the family of God (boy has that been blown
out of proportion); or anything else you can make a conjecture of. Have fun
with the milk. Let’s see how you handle it. In Christ (the Body).
P.S. I’m an Independent Baptist preacher from a local church
in Duncan, OK named Victory Baptist Church. Also, no part of this may be
reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I play hard
ball. Write back.”
Signed Jeffrey Nachimson Gal. 5:20
* * * * *
Herb Evans, 157 Patties Place, Portersville, PA 16051 - April 14, 1997
Jeffrey D. Nachimson, 234 NW 36th # 2001, Duncan, OK 73008
Dear Jeffrey,
Thank you for your letter, which obviously reflects your
irritation with my view of the church. Believe what you wish; it doesn’t
bother me a bit. It is a free country (almost). You say, “. . . no part of
this may be reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I
play hardball. Write back.”
Now, listen carefully, if you wish to correspond with me, this
is the way that it is going to be. I will answer your questions and
challenges and letters. You will answer my questions and letters. We will
quote from the Bible not other men’s books. Perhaps, you have something to
hide from Christendom; I don’t! Still, I will reproduce your correspondence
in its entirety without any permission from you; you may do the same with
mine. You will not play the young smart aleck (preacher or no)! I, on
occasion, play hardball, if I must! Have a good day. – Herb Evans
P.S. I am not a Baptist Brider, as you imply, I am a local church only. Go
ye and learn what that meaneth!
******
Nachimson’s response April 22, 1997
Herb Evans, Regarding your letter dated April 14, a few
items need to be corrected, First of all “irritation” is not my motive for
challenging your “local church position.” Scriptural misrepresentation (see
your article in the last issue of the Flaming Torch - “The end of your
Search for the invisible church), bias misappropriation (your quotes from
Haifly’s letter). And simple curiousity. Two, my quotes from _’s books were
for specific purposes.
1.) To see what you would say (Since you print articles in the
. . . .________
2). They were prominent ostentacious representatives of my
biblical position. Paul quotes their sources (Acts 17 - unsaved poet), and
so do you (see correspondence with . . . . You quoted Spurgeon to prove a
point).
3.) Thirdly, there is really no need for you to be a “debate
moderator.” Actually, I had already coincided with your proposition. I sent
you scriptural references with accompanying questions. That is all I wanted
to do. Answer and refute you, and have you attempt to answer the Bible, got it?
Concerning the “play the young smart aleck” inference, your
statement amounts to nothing, save a good laugh. Thank you. As for hiding
from Christendom, you obviously pre-assumed my motive, and again (Becoming
a habit, it seems). I said “no part . . .” Please reproduce my letters in
their entirety.
Leaving out portions is not only dishonest in some cases but
can miss the intent of the author, Excuse my “foolish implications”
(facetious statement) regarding you as a Baptist Brider. I obviously took
for granted that since you believe the local Baptist Church is the body of
Christ (which is his bride), if you are not a member of this body, you’re
not in the Bride. Either way you don’t believe Christ has one spiritual
body composed of all the saved from Pentecost to the Rapture, called the
church.
Perhaps everyone constitutes “the church” at the rapture,
since the rapture is supposedly “a called out assembly.” (That is Jack
Hyles’ position). Why don’t you clarify your position for me? All I have is
your recent “Torch” article. You do teach the verses the same as the
Briders (Gal. 3:26, Eph. 4:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, I Time 3:15, etc...) They teach
all are in the family of God, but not the church (like you teach).
Maybe it’s the terms you’re discombobulated with? You tell me.
Illuminate my psychological vicissitudes, please. Your proposition is fine,
Bro. Evans Although I will quote a source if they reinforce scriptural
truth. No more capricious letters. Just to the point, no evasion, and all
questions answered, or questions returned. “Let’s get the show on the
road.” So long, brother.
In Christ, Signed Jeffrey D. Nachimson, 7234 NW 36th # 2001,
Bethany, Ok 73008 (not Duncan)
P.S. Remember, just because one plays hardball, doesn’t mean they are
accomplishing anything. One can still strike out!
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<br><br>
<div align="center"><font size=5 color="#FF0000">PART ONE<br><br>
</font><b>The END of your SEARCH for an IMAGINARY CHURCH<br><br>
(Sequel Debate to the Above – Evans versus Nachimson)<br><br>
</div>
<br><br>
Here
is the most unusual and incredible discussion that you have ever read,
regarding the invisible, mystical church of all believers. For the most
part, except for some irresistible annotations of mine to Jeffrey
Nachimson’s last letter at the climax of the discussion, we have allowed
Jeff Nachimson, alleged Baptist “preacher” from Victory Baptist Church of
Duncan, Oklahoma to have his say in many handwritten pages. (See
Composite Reply with annotations of Jeffrey Nachimson’s letters at the
end.) <br><br>
Note
the insults and name calling by rude novice, whose combative character
has not changed to date July 17, 2004, several years later in recent
confrontations with myself and some others. His cryptic interpretation of
Bible passages should be read by every Bible believing Baptist, if for
nothing else but to realize the lengths that such Invisible Church
<i>MYSTICS</i> will go to in order to prove something exists that does
not exist. We have reproduced, for permission’s sake, the entire
correspondence at Jeffrey D. Nachimson’s insistence. This started with a
handwritten letter (4/9/97) from Jeffrey Nachimson, a cocky and arrogant
young man, who is unhappy over an article of mine in the “Flaming Torch.”
Jeff’s hand written letters typed by Herb Evans. – Herb
Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
<div align="center">4/9/97<br><br>
</b></div>
<br><br>
<b>Herb Evans,<br><br>
“The
word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. “Out of that 117, times it
is used as referring to a Local church. Ten times it is a reference to
the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, of
which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1 Tim. 3:15,
etc...) “The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly called
out front the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus
Christ) is the promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit
on the throne of David. This local church is converted to an organic
living Body at Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at
Pentecost and from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not
only is the Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the
world, dying on the cross and making a blood atonement that “taketh away
the sin of the world.” (The Local Church, _______) The greatest stumbling
block for the “Briders” is the fact that in the early days of the church
all of the Body (all of the saved people) met in the same Local assembly.
This makes it look like the local assembly is the “Body” (ibid, pg. ___).
<br><br>
This
is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole Bible full to give.
Answer this, please. How can one discuss the locality or universality or
both concerning the “church” if the church is the “body” and “Baptism”
puts a man into the “Body.” If he’s saved, of course. Observe closely.
Acts 2:47 - “. . . And the Lord added to the church daily such as should
be saved.” <br><br>
Now
look at Acts 5:14 - “And believers were the more added to the Lord,
multitudes both men and women.” Well, I’ll declare, people are added to
the church and added to the Lord. What does it mean to be “In Christ?” In
his “body,” perhaps? Luke did not write these verses until the apostle of
the Body “Mystery” has been with him for nearly ten years. When Luke says
“added to the Lord” he has 1 Corinthians 12:13 right in front of him.
Luke equates “church” with the “Lord” in his writing, while reading Gal.
2-3 and 1 Cor.
12.
Guess what, “but he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor.
6:17). How does that happen? Joining a local New Testament Baptist
Church? I think not! See the answer in (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom
6:1-6; and 1 Cor 12:13; and Col 2:9-14. The Lord called out his church in
Matthew 10. One member turns out to be an infidel (Thomas), one cusses
and swears before unsaved people (Peter), and the treasurer of the church
is a devil (Judas, John 6). This is not the “body of Christ who (sic)
members are member of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones” (Eph. 5).
<br><br>
<br><br>
Since,
I’ve already mentioned Ephesians 5, let me make an interesting point. So
according to you and your “Baptist Bride,” Eph 5:23 applies to the
individual husband - wife relationship, recapitulating Christ as the head
of each assembly? Right? Then how do you justify one head for each wife?
Verse 25 - “Husbands (plural), love your wives (plural) even as Christ
(singular) also loved the church (singular), and gave himself for it
(singular)”; The reference is the husband - wife relationship, man. After
all, Christ is one body, is he not (1 Cor. 12:12)? Water baptism doesn’t
accomplish verse 30, but the Spirit baptism does! (Eph. 4:5). Here’s a
good quote, Herb. “The verse settles beyond any question the matter of
the local church and “the church which is His body.” To say that Christ
died for the local church would be nonsense. (Commentary on ______,
_____, ____. Pg. _____. ___ was referring to Eph. 5:25 by the way.
<br><br>
<br><br>
The
local church is the gathering together of certain members of the body of
Christ in a specific locality. Sometimes, there is more than one local
church in each locality. See Gal. 1:2; Acts 20; Phil. 1:1 for starters.
Isn’t it peculiar that Ephesians 1:1 is addressed to “the saints which
are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”:, but Paul refers to
“the church” (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 5:23, 25, 30). Galatians 1:13 is also a
reference to “the body of Christ.” If you think it’s just “the church of
Jerusalem” why don’t you read Acts 8:1-3 with Acts 9:31, and tell me
“what that meaneth.<br><br>
<br><br>
I’ll
tell you what, Herb. Instead of sending you 20 pages, I’ll leave you at
this point to respond. If you do, we’ll continue. If not O.K. Whatever
you want. In further correspondence I’ll cover 1 Cor. 12; Gal. 3:26; Eph.
2: 1 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 10: 1 Cor 6: 1 Thess 1-2; Matthew 16:16-18 (be sure
and get a head start by studying “the gates of hell shall not PREVAIL
AGAINST IT:’ Eph.3; the family of God (boy has that been blown out of
proportion); or anything else you can make a conjecture of. Have fun with
the milk. Let’s see how you handle it. In Christ (the Body). <br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
P.S.
I’m an Independent Baptist preacher from a local church in Duncan, OK
named Victory Baptist Church. Also, no part of this may be reproduced
without the express, written, authorization of me. I play hard ball.
Write back.”<br><br>
<br><br>
Signed Jeffrey Nachimson Gal. 5:20<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<div align="center">* * * * * <br><br>
</div>
<br><br>
Herb Evans, 157 Patties Place, Portersville, PA 16051 - April 14,
1997<br><br>
<br><br>
Jeffrey D. Nachimson, 234 NW 36th # 2001, Duncan, OK 73008<br><br>
<br><br>
Dear Jeffrey,<br><br>
<br><br>
Thank
you for your letter, which obviously reflects your irritation with my
view of the church. Believe what you wish; it doesn’t bother me a bit. It
is a free country (almost). You say, “. . . no part of this may be
reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I play
hardball. Write back.”<br><br>
<br><br>
Now,
listen carefully, if you wish to correspond with me, this is the way that
it is going to be. I will answer your questions and challenges and
letters. You will answer my questions and letters. We will quote from the
Bible not other men’s books. Perhaps, you have something to hide from
Christendom; I don’t! Still, I will reproduce your correspondence in its
entirety without any permission from you; you may do the same with mine.
You will not play the young smart aleck (preacher or no)! I, on occasion,
play hardball, if I must! Have a good day. – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
P.S. I am not a Baptist Brider, as you imply, I am a local church only.
Go ye and learn what that meaneth! <br><br>
<br><br>
<div align="center">******<br><br>
</div>
<br><br>
Nachimson’s response April 22, 1997<br><br>
<br><br>
Herb
Evans, Regarding your letter dated April 14, a few items need
to be corrected, First of all “irritation” is not my motive for
challenging your “local church position.” Scriptural misrepresentation
(see your article in the last issue of the Flaming Torch - “The end of
your Search for the invisible church), bias misappropriation (your quotes
from Haifly’s letter). And simple curiousity. Two, my quotes from _’s
books were for specific purposes.<br><br>
<br><br>
1.) To
see what you would say (Since you print articles in the . . .
.________ <br><br>
2).
They were prominent ostentacious representatives of my biblical position.
Paul quotes their sources (Acts 17 - unsaved poet), and so do you (see
correspondence with . . . . You quoted Spurgeon to prove a
point).<br><br>
3.)
Thirdly, there is really no need for you to be a “debate moderator.”
Actually, I had already coincided with your proposition. I sent you
scriptural references with accompanying questions. That is all I wanted
to do. Answer and refute you, and have you attempt to answer the Bible,
got it?<br><br>
<br><br>
Concerning the “play the young smart aleck” inference, your statement
amounts to nothing, save a good laugh. Thank you. As for hiding from
Christendom, you obviously pre-assumed my motive, and again (Becoming a
habit, it seems). I said “no part . . .” Please reproduce my letters in
their entirety. <br><br>
Leaving out portions is not only dishonest in some cases but can miss the
intent of the author, Excuse my “foolish implications” (facetious
statement) regarding you as a Baptist Brider. I obviously took for
granted that since you believe the local Baptist Church is the body of
Christ (which is his bride), if you are not a member of this body, you’re
not in the Bride. Either way you don’t believe Christ has one spiritual
body composed of all the saved from Pentecost to the Rapture, called the
church. <br><br>
Perhaps everyone constitutes “the church” at the rapture, since the
rapture is supposedly “a called out assembly.” (That is Jack Hyles’
position). Why don’t you clarify your position for me? All I have is your
recent “Torch” article. You do teach the verses the same as the Briders
(Gal. 3:26, Eph. 4:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, I Time 3:15, etc...) They teach all
are in the family of God, but not the church (like you teach). <br><br>
Maybe
it’s the terms you’re discombobulated with? You tell me. Illuminate my
psychological vicissitudes, please. Your proposition is fine, Bro. Evans
Although I will quote a source if they reinforce scriptural truth. No
more capricious letters. Just to the point, no evasion, and all questions
answered, or questions returned. “Let’s get the show on the road.” So
long, brother.<br><br>
<br><br>
In
Christ, Signed Jeffrey D. Nachimson, 7234 NW 36th # 2001,
<br><br>
Bethany, Ok 73008 (not Duncan) <br><br>
<br><br>
P.S. Remember, just because one plays hardball, doesn’t mean they are
accomplishing anything. One can still strike out! <br><br>
<br><br>
</b></body>
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