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[Invisible Church] Evans/Nachimson Debate
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John Henry
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Apr 24, 2005 22:14 PDT
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PART TWO
From: Herb Evans, 57 Patties Place Portersville, PA 16051 - April 26, 1997
To: Jeffrey Nachimson 7234 New 36th #2001 Bethany, OK 73008
Jeffery,
Thank you for your letter (4/22/97) and your consent to print
our correspondence. So, you have disavowed my insinuation (without noting
my use of the word “perhaps.” Fine! I have disavowed your implication that
I am a Baptist “Brider.” We are even. I still have not been assured that
you will not play the “smart aleck.” Still, I will answer your letter of
April 9, 1997 as follows. You say:
1.) The word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. Out of
that 117, times it is used as referring to a Local church. Ten times it is
a reference to the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord
Jesus Christ, of which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1
Tim. 3:15, etc... – Jeffrey Nachimson
1. A.) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to
be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness
of him that filleth all in all. -- Eph. 1:22, 23
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have
the preeminence. -- Col. 1:18
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(written to the local church of God, which is at Corinth -- 1 Cor. 12:27
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest
to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living
God, the pillar and ground of the truth. --1 Tim. 3:15
We would both agree that the body of Christ is not mystical.
We would also agree that the actual physical body of Christ is organic and
spiritual. We would agree that the 110 times (ecclesia) which you cited
are, indeed, the local church.
We probably would agree that the local church is physical and
organic, an assembly of organic, physical people. I would contend that the
local church is also a spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5) made up of physical,
organic, spiritual individuals (Gal. 6:1; 1 Cor. 2:15) except when carnal
(1 Cor. 3:1). I would also contend that Christ is the head of the local
Church and that Christ is the head of the local body. If not, who is the
head of the local church/body? The Pope? Is your mysterious house of God in
heaven? If so, how do you behave yourself in your mysterious house of God
in the sky. If you are a member of the actual, physical, organic body of
Christ. What part of you is a member? Your body? Your soul? Your Spirit?
Where is the scripture for your answer? What is the address of the other 6
times your special church is mentioned? What is the mechanism that you use
to distinguish this special church from the other 107 occurrences?
Intuition? Spiritual discernment? Would I be correct in saying that you
advocate two Christian churches in Scripture? Two bodies? – Herb Evans
2.) The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly
called out from the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus
Christ) is the promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit on
the throne of David. This local church is converted to an organic living
Body at Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at Pentecost
and from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not only is the
Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the world, dying
on the cross and making a blood atonement that “taketh away the sin of the
world.” – Jeffrey Nachimson
[You quote someone else here, whether in context or out of
context - I will not allow you pit one party against another or to play two
sides against the middle but will treat this as your quote. You also quote
this same source in reference to the same thing involving “Briders.” I need
not defend the term “Brider” as I have said; I am a “local church only.”] –
Herb Evans
2. A.) I have examined Acts 2 and the day of Pentecost and
cannot find this conversion of a local church to an organic living body at
Pentecost. Was the pre-Pentecost local church not alive before Pentecost?
Were its members not already organic? Mineral? Vegetable? Did anyone see
this conversion? What scripture specifically shows this conversion? – Herb
Evans
3.) This is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole
Bible full to give. Answer this please. How can one discuss the locality or
universality or both concerning the
“church” if the church is the “body” and “Baptism” puts a man into
the “Body.” If he’s saved of course. – Jeffrey Nachimson
3. A.) Well, if the baptism is “local” and the “local church”
is “local” and the “local body” is “local,” I have no trouble discussing
its locality. If it is a “generic baptism” or a “generic local church” or a
“generic local body,” I have not trouble discussing its generic
universality. Of course, I keep in mind that the generic always implies a
specific single unit. – Herb Evans
4.) Observe closely. Acts 2:47 - “... And the Lord added to
the church daily such as should be saved.” Now look at Acts 5:14 - “And
believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both men and women.”
Well, I’ll declare, people are added to the church and added
to the Lord. What does it mean to be “In Christ?” In his “body, perhaps?”
Luke did not write these verses until the apostle of the Body ‘Mystery’ has
been with him for nearly ten years. When Luke says ‘added to the Lord’ he
has 1 Corinthians 12:13 right in front of him. Luke equates “church” WITH
the “Lord” in his writing, while reading Gal. 2-3 and 1 Cor. 12. Guess
what, “but he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17).
How does that happen? Joining a local New Testament Baptist Church? I think
not! See the answer in (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom 6:1-6; and 1 Cor 12:13;
and Col 2:9-14.
– Jeffrey Nachimson
4. A.) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added to them about three thousand souls. --
Acts 2:41
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the
Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. -- Acts 2:47
You sure do “declare”; it would be better if you do prove.
Yes, people are added to the Lord, and they are added to the church. The
terms are not always necessarily synonymous, as you try to force them to
be. In this case, those that were water baptized were added to them (a
local church). Acts 2:41 is no different from those that were added to a
local church in Acts 2:47, unless you can show otherwise by the context. --
Evans
4.B.) And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as
many as heard these things . . . And of the rest durst no man join himself
to them: but the people magnified them . . . And believers were the more
added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women . . . --Acts 5:11, 13, 14
In the case of Acts 5:14, an important distinction is made in
the context. Fear came upon the local church, and of the rest durst no man
join himself to them (local church), but believers were added to the Lord
(salvation). -- Herb Evans
4. C.) And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to
join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and
believed not that he was a disciple. -- Acts 9:26
Since Saul/Paul did not even try to join the church until Acts
9:26, Is it possible for you to support your allegations that Luke did not
write this until after being with Paul ten years? Can you support your
allegation that Luke read 1 Cor. 12 and Gal. 2-3 before writing Acts
5:14? Did Luke read 1 Cor. 12 and Gal. 2-3 before writing Acts 2:41 and
47? -- Herb Evans
4. D.) And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea
which were IN Christ . . . -- Gal. 1:22
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God
which in Judaea are IN Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things
of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews . . . -- 1 Th. 2:14
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and
which are on earth; even in him: -- Eph. 1:10
“What does it mean to be in Christ (Nachimson),” you ask. In
his “body,” perhaps? No, not in His body! It is a term of reference, not
“physical” nor “organic” reality. It means the same thing, when discussing
individuals as it does when discussing churches. Obviously, the saints in
heaven are “in Christ” as well as the churches on earth. Is your mysterious
church on earth or in heaven? Or both? What part(s) of it is in heaven? Do
you have a mysterious church on earth that is inside a church in heaven?
Are churches on earth in Christ’s body in heaven? Are their mysterious
churches (plural) in heaven and/or earth? – Herb Evans
4. E.) Know ye not that your bodies are the members of
Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members
of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an
harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is
joined unto the Lord is one spirit. --1 Cor. 6: 15-17
You say the answer is in this passage, and I think you are
right. We need to look into the context of your proof-text (1 Cor. 6:17) to
find the answer. We find in the same context that our bodies are members of
Christ. Is that what is a member of your church in the sky? Your Body? Or
is it your soul? Or is it your spirit? Or should we be looking for
something else? One thing is clear, whatever can be joined to the Lord can
be joined to a harlot in this passage as “one body.” – Herb Evans
4. F.) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
Christ. -- Gal. 3:26, 27
You say the answer is in this passage also. I believe you are
right, for to be in Christ, a person is saved by faith in Christ Jesus, but
to put on Christ, one must be water baptized. Notice that it does not say,
For as many of you as are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for
everyone is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus. However, everyone, who
has their faith in Christ Jesus, does not put on Christ, hence, the
qualifying language “as many of you.” – Herb Evans
4. G.) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that
grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any
longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus
Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by
baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the
glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if
we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be
also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is
crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that
henceforth we should not serve sin. --Rom. 6:1-6
These are neat passages, which you chose, for they really do
give us the answers. I don’t have to look up proof-texts of my own, for
yours are fine. Romans 6 discusses being baptized into Christ as being
baptized into His death. Is death organic? How do you get baptized into
“death?” In this baptism, we are buried with Him. How do you get buried
with him by baptism into death and also be baptized into Him? What
significance do you place on the word “buried?” What significance does the
expression “planted in the likeness of his death” have? Could this be a
reference to “water” baptism? What is the likeness, if not? If this is not
a reference to water baptism, where is a reference that shows that
symbolism - death, burial, and resurrection? – Herb Evans
4.H.) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality
and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made
without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ: Buried WITH him (not into him) in baptism, wherein
also ye are risen WITH (not into) him through the faith of the operation of
God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins
and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him,
having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of
ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
of the way, nailing it to his cross . . . -- Col. 2:9-14
It is no problem for us to have the symbol (baptism) united
with the reality (death, burial, and resurrection for our sins). How would
we know the significance if that were not the case? We are buried with Him
not into Him. We are resurrected with Him and not into Him. We have already
addressed the word “buried” and will wait until you provide the answer to
our question regarding it. – Herb Evans
4. I.) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been
all made to drink into one Spirit. -- 1 Cor. 12:13
We have written an entire article on 1 Cor. 12:13, which
appeared in the “Flaming Torch.” We will see to it that you get it after
you answer our questions. – Herb Evans
5.) The Lord called out his church in Matthew 10. One member
turns out to be an infidel (Thomas), one cusses and swears before unsaved
people (Peter), and the treasurer of the church is a devil (Judas, John 6).
This is not the “body of Christ who (sic) members are member of his body,
of his flesh, and of his bones” (Eph. 5). – Jeffrey Nachimson
5. A) You have already admitted that the church prior to
Pentecost was a local church, so why find fault with it? The “mysterious”
church was not yet revealed to Paul and then to Luke, according to you. Why
care about the character of pre-pentecost church’s members, unless you are
trying to force a point? Christ had not died yet! No indwelling Holy
Spirit! The members of your ecumenical church in the sky are baby
sprinklers, tongues speakers, Swaggerts, Bakers, and lose your
salvationists. My own local church is purer than that.
– Herb Evans
6.) Since, I’ve already mentioned Ephesians 5, let me make an
interesting point. So according to you and your “Baptist Bride”, Eph 5:23
applies to the individual husband - wife relationship, recapitulating
Christ as the head of each assembly?
Right? Then how do you justify one head for each wife? Verse
25 - ‘Husbands (plural), love your wives (plural) even as Christ (singular)
also loved the church (singular), and gave himself for it (singular)”; The
reference is the husband -- wife relationship, man. After all, Christ is
one body, is he not (1 Cor. 12:12)? –Jeffrey Nachimson
6.A.) Let the deacons be the husbands (plural) of one wife
(singular), ruling their children and their own houses well. -- 1 Tim. 3:12
No one told me that I had to justify it. Actually, I don’t!
Christ is, indeed, one body. Obviously, you are carrying language use too
far. Every case or gender does not have to match to convey a spiritual
truth or parallel. Clearly, there is only one Christ; it would be
grammatically impossible to even say Christs (plural) loved the churches.
You are really straining a gnat here. There are, however, many husbands and
many wives, therefore it can be said both ways (5:23 & 25). But since you
are contentious over language use, try 1 Tim. 3:12, where husbands (plural)
and wife (singular) do not match. – Herb Evans
7.) “Water baptism doesn’t accomplish verse 30, but the Spirit
baptism does! (Eph. 4:5). Here’s a good quote, Herb. “The verse settles
beyond any question the matter of the local church and “the church, which
is his body. To say that Christ died for the local church would be
nonsense.” – Jeffrey Nachimson
7. A.) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother,
and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. -- Eph.
5:31
Water baptism doesn’t satisfy verse 31. Neither does spirit
baptism. It doesn’t have to! The two bodies are one flesh, here on earth!
Again, we are comparing the relationship of the husband and wife with
Christ and the church. Christ is one body. The local church is his
representative body on earth. The relationship is two bodies, one flesh!
You don’t mysticize the husband/wife relationship. Why
mysticize the Christ/local church relationship? What about the saint and
the harlot being “one body” (1 Cor. 6:15-17)? What does water baptism have
to do with that. Spirit baptism? Show one passage, where one person is
baptized by the Holy Spirit? Just one! (except 1 Cor. 12:13, I will send
you a whole article on that.) – Herb Evans
7. B.) And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the
elders of the church. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye
know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have
been with you at all seasons . . . Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and
to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to
feed the church of God. which he hath purchased with his own blood. -- Acts
20:17,18, 28
Yes, Christ did die for the local church. We have our
proof-text that He did (unless it is nonsense). Where is your proof-text
that He didn’t? You admit that the churches in a locality were local in
Acts 20. You, therefore, admit that He died for these local churches that
the elders were told to feed. Could they feed your church in the
sky? --Herb Evans
8.) The local church is the gathering together of certain
members of the body of Christ in a specific locality. Sometimes, there is
more than one local church in each locality. See Gal. 1:2; Acts 20; Phil.
1:1 for starters. Isn’t it peculiar that Ephesians 1:1 is addressed to “the
saints which are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:”, but Paul
refers to “the church” (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 5:23,25,30). Galatians 1:13 is also
a reference to “the body of Christ.” If you think its just “the church of
Jerusalem” why don’t you read Acts 8: 1-3 with Acts 9:31, and tell me “what
that meaneth.” – Jeffrey Nachimson
8. A.) No! I don’t think it is peculiar. I think Paul should
be allowed to address them as many ways as he liked. Why should the
church/body in the sky be subject to the church/body in the sky (Christ -
Eph. 5:24)? As for Gal. 1:13, Paul persecuted the church, generically
speaking. Acts 8:1 says there was persecution against the “CHURCH
(singular) WHICH WAS AT JERUSALEM!” (single locality). Remember, the
“mystery” of “the body of Christ” was not revealed to Paul yet? The
churches (plural) of many localities (plural) of Acts 9:31 had rest. What
do you want me to compare? All your proof-texts are in my favor. – Herb Evans
9.) “I’ll tell you what, Herb. Instead of sending you 20
pages, I’ll leave you at this point to respond. If you do, we’ll continue.
If not O.K. Whatever you want. In further correspondence I’ll cover 1 Cor.
12; Gal. 3:26; Eph. 2: 1 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 10: 1 Cor 6: 1 Thess 1-2; Matthew
16:16-18 (be sure and get a head start by studying “the gates of hell shall
not PREVAIL AGAINST IT;” Eph. 3; the family of God (boy has that been blown
out of proportion); or anything else you can make a conjecture of. Have fun
with the milk. Let’s see how you handle it. In Christ (the Body). P.S. I’m
an Independent Baptist preacher from a local church in Duncan, OK named
Victory Baptist Church. Also, no part of this may be reproduced without the
express, written, authorization of me. I play hard ball. Write back.
-- Jefftey Nachimson
9. A.) You must think a great deal of yourself and your
abilities. Perhaps, you better give me the heavy stuff, the meat. That is
after you answer my questions. I’ve kept my part of the bargain. I have
reproduced your letter in its entirety, except for listing your sources and
one redundant quote. I have answered not only your questions but your
points, listing them under numbers and letters for easy reference (for
both you and me). I trust that you will keep your part of the bargain.
I have your “permission to reproduce” your letters (4/22/97).
‘Nuff said! -- Herb Evans
Sincerely in Christ (positionally), Herb Evans
See Herb Evans’ Annotations on Jeffrey Nachimson’s response to
Herb Evans’ letter of 4/26/97 below:
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<div align="center"><font size=5 color="#FF0000">PART TWO<br><br>
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<br><br>
From: Herb Evans, 57 Patties Place Portersville, PA 16051 - April 26,
1997<br><br>
<br><br>
To: Jeffrey Nachimson 7234 New 36th #2001 Bethany, OK 73008<br><br>
<br><br>
Jeffery,<br><br>
Thank
you for your letter (4/22/97) and your consent to print our
correspondence. So, you have disavowed my insinuation (without noting my
use of the word “perhaps.” Fine! I have disavowed your implication that I
am a Baptist “Brider.” We are even. I still have not been assured that
you will not play the “smart aleck.” Still, I will answer your letter of
April 9, 1997 as follows. You say:<br><br>
<br><br>
1.)
The word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. Out of that 117, times
it is used as referring to a Local church. Ten times it is a reference to
the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, of
which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1 Tim. 3:15,
etc... – Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
1. A.)
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over
all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that
filleth all in all. -- Eph. 1:22, 23<br><br>
<br><br>
And he
is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. --
Col. 1:18<br><br>
<br><br>
Now ye
are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (written to the local
church of God, which is at Corinth -- 1 Cor. 12:27<br><br>
<br><br>
But if
I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself
in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar
and ground of the truth. --1 Tim. 3:15<br><br>
<br><br>
We
would both agree that the body of Christ is not mystical. We would also
agree that the actual physical body of Christ is organic and spiritual.
We would agree that the 110 times (ecclesia) which you cited are, indeed,
the local church. <br><br>
<br><br>
We
probably would agree that the local church is physical and organic, an
assembly of organic, physical people. I would contend that the local
church is also a spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5) made up of physical,
organic, spiritual individuals (Gal. 6:1; 1 Cor. 2:15) except when carnal
(1 Cor. 3:1). I would also contend that Christ is the head of the local
Church and that Christ is the head of the local body. If not, who is the
head of the local church/body? The Pope? Is your mysterious house of God
in heaven? If so, how do you behave yourself in your mysterious house of
God in the sky. If you are a member of the actual, physical, organic body
of Christ. What part of you is a member? Your body? Your soul? Your
Spirit? Where is the scripture for your answer? What is the address of
the other 6 times your special church is mentioned? What is the mechanism
that you use to distinguish this special church from the other 107
occurrences? Intuition? Spiritual discernment? Would I be correct in
saying that you advocate two Christian churches in Scripture? Two bodies?
– Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
2.)
The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly called out from
the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus Christ) is the
promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit on the throne of
David. This local church is converted to an organic living Body at
Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at Pentecost and
from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not only is the
Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the
world, dying on the cross and making a blood atonement that
“taketh away the sin of the world.” – Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
[You
quote someone else here, whether in context or out of context - I will
not allow you pit one party against another or to play two sides against
the middle but will treat this as your quote. You also quote this same
source in reference to the same thing involving “Briders.” I need not
defend the term “Brider” as I have said; I am a “local church only.”] –
Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
2. A.)
I have examined Acts 2 and the day of Pentecost and cannot find this
conversion of a local church to an organic living body at Pentecost. Was
the pre-Pentecost local church not alive before Pentecost? Were its
members not already organic? Mineral? Vegetable? Did anyone see this
conversion? What scripture specifically shows this conversion? –
Herb Evans<br><br>
3.)
This is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole Bible full to
give. Answer this please. How can one discuss the locality or
universality or both concerning the “church” if
the church is the “body” and “Baptism” puts
a man into the “Body.” If he’s saved of course. –
Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
3. A.)
Well, if the baptism is “local” and the “local church” is “local” and the
“local body” is “local,” I have no trouble discussing its locality. If it
is a “generic baptism” or a “generic local church” or a “generic local
body,” I have not trouble discussing its generic universality. Of course,
I keep in mind that the generic always implies a specific single unit. –
Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4.)
Observe closely. Acts 2:47 - “... And the Lord added to the church daily
such as should be saved.” Now look at Acts 5:14 - “And believers were the
more added to the Lord, multitudes both men and women.” <br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
Well,
I’ll declare, people are added to the church and added to the Lord. What
does it mean to be “In Christ?” In his “body, perhaps?” Luke did not
write these verses until the apostle of the Body ‘Mystery’ has been with
him for nearly ten years. When Luke says ‘added to the Lord’ he has 1
Corinthians 12:13 right in front of him. Luke equates “church” WITH the
“Lord” in his writing, while reading Gal. 2-3 and 1 Cor. 12. Guess what,
“but he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17). How
does that happen? Joining a local New Testament Baptist Church? I think
not! See the answer in (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom 6:1-6; and 1 Cor
12:13; and Col 2:9-14. <br><br>
– Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
4. A.)
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day
there were added to them about three thousand souls. -- Acts
2:41<br><br>
<br><br>
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added
to the Church daily such as should be saved. -- Acts 2:47<br><br>
<br><br>
You
sure do “declare”; it would be better if you do prove. Yes, people are
added to the Lord, and they are added to the church. The terms are not
always necessarily synonymous, as you try to force them to be. In this
case, those that were water baptized were added to them (a local church).
Acts 2:41 is no different from those that were added to a local church in
Acts 2:47, unless you can show otherwise by the context. --
Evans<br><br>
<br>
4.B.)
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these
things . . . And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the
people magnified them . . . And believers were the more added to the
Lord, multitudes both of men and women . . . --Acts 5:11, 13, 14
<br><br>
<br><br>
In the
case of Acts 5:14, an important distinction is made in the context. Fear
came upon the local church, and of the rest durst no man join himself to
them (local church), but believers were added to the Lord (salvation). --
Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4. C.)
And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to
the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he
was a disciple. -- Acts 9:26<br><br>
<br><br>
Since
Saul/Paul did not even try to join the church until Acts 9:26, Is it
possible for you to support your allegations that Luke did not write this
until after being with Paul ten years? Can you support your allegation
that Luke read 1 Cor. 12 and Gal. 2-3 before writing Acts 5:14? Did
Luke read 1 Cor. 12 and Gal. 2-3 before writing Acts 2:41 and
47? -- Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4.
D.) And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which
were IN Christ . . . -- Gal. 1:22<br><br>
<br><br>
For
ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are
IN Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own
countrymen, even as they have of the Jews . . . -- 1 Th. 2:14<br><br>
<br><br>
That
in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in
one all things IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on
earth; even in him: -- Eph. 1:10<br><br>
<br><br>
“What
does it mean to be in Christ (Nachimson),” you ask. In his “body,”
perhaps? No, not in His body! It is a term of reference, not “physical”
nor “organic” reality. It means the same thing, when discussing
individuals as it does when discussing churches. Obviously, the saints in
heaven are “in Christ” as well as the churches on earth. Is your
mysterious church on earth or in heaven? Or both? What part(s) of it is
in heaven? Do you have a mysterious church on earth that is inside a
church in heaven? Are churches on earth in Christ’s body in heaven? Are
their mysterious churches (plural) in heaven and/or earth? – Herb
Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4. E.) Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I
then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot?
God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one
body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto
the Lord is one spirit. --1 Cor. 6: 15-17<br><br>
<br><br>
You
say the answer is in this passage, and I think you are right. We need to
look into the context of your proof-text (1 Cor. 6:17) to find the
answer. We find in the same context that our bodies are members of
Christ. Is that what is a member of your church in the sky? Your Body? Or
is it your soul? Or is it your spirit? Or should we be looking for
something else? One thing is clear, whatever can be joined to the Lord
can be joined to a harlot in this passage as “one body.” – Herb
Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4. F.)
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many
of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. -- Gal.
3:26, 27<br><br>
You
say the answer is in this passage also. I believe you are right, for to
be in Christ, a person is saved by faith in Christ Jesus, but to put on
Christ, one must be water baptized. Notice that it does not say, For as
many of you as are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for
everyone is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus. However, everyone,
who has their faith in Christ Jesus, does not put on Christ, hence, the
qualifying language “as many of you.” – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4. G.)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into
death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of
the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we
have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also
in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is
crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that
henceforth we should not serve sin. --Rom. 6:1-6<br><br>
<br><br>
These
are neat passages, which you chose, for they really do give us the
answers. I don’t have to look up proof-texts of my own, for yours are
fine. Romans 6 discusses being baptized into Christ as being baptized
into His death. Is death organic? How do you get baptized into “death?”
In this baptism, we are buried with Him. How do you get buried with him
by baptism into death and also be baptized into Him? What significance do
you place on the word “buried?” What significance does the
expression “planted in the likeness of his death” have? Could this
be a reference to “water” baptism? What is the likeness, if not? If this
is not a reference to water baptism, where is a reference that shows that
symbolism - death, burial, and resurrection? – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4.H.)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are
complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom
also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in
putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of
Christ: Buried WITH him (not into him) in baptism, wherein also ye are
risen WITH (not into) him through the faith of the operation of God, who
hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having
forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances
that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the
way, nailing it to his cross . . . -- Col. 2:9-14<br><br>
<br><br>
It is
no problem for us to have the symbol (baptism) united with the reality
(death, burial, and resurrection for our sins). How would we know the
significance if that were not the case? We are buried with Him not into
Him. We are resurrected with Him and not into Him. We have already
addressed the word “buried” and will wait until you provide the answer to
our question regarding it. – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
4. I.)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews
or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into one Spirit. -- 1 Cor. 12:13<br><br>
We
have written an entire article on 1 Cor. 12:13, which appeared in the
“Flaming Torch.” We will see to it that you get it after you answer our
questions. – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
5.)
The Lord called out his church in Matthew 10. One member turns out to be
an infidel (Thomas), one cusses and swears before unsaved people (Peter),
and the treasurer of the church is a devil (Judas, John 6). This is not
the “body of Christ who (sic) members are member of his body, of his
flesh, and of his bones” (Eph. 5). – Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
5. A)
You have already admitted that the church prior to Pentecost was a local
church, so why find fault with it? The “mysterious” church was not yet
revealed to Paul and then to Luke, according to you. Why care about the
character of pre-pentecost church’s members, unless you are trying to
force a point? Christ had not died yet! No indwelling Holy Spirit! The
members of your ecumenical church in the sky are baby sprinklers, tongues
speakers, Swaggerts, Bakers, and lose your salvationists. My own local
church is purer than that. <br><br>
– Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
6.)
Since, I’ve already mentioned Ephesians 5, let me make an interesting
point. So according to you and your “Baptist Bride”, Eph 5:23 applies to
the individual husband - wife relationship, recapitulating Christ as the
head of each assembly? <br><br>
Right?
Then how do you justify one head for each wife? Verse 25 - ‘Husbands
(plural), love your wives (plural) even as Christ (singular) also loved
the church (singular), and gave himself for it (singular)”; The reference
is the husband -- wife relationship, man. After all, Christ is one body,
is he not (1 Cor. 12:12)? –Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
6.A.)
Let the deacons be the husbands (plural) of one wife (singular), ruling
their children and their own houses well. -- 1 Tim. 3:12<br><br>
<br><br>
No one
told me that I had to justify it. Actually, I don’t! Christ is, indeed,
one body. Obviously, you are carrying language use too far. Every case or
gender does not have to match to convey a spiritual truth or parallel.
Clearly, there is only one Christ; it would be grammatically impossible
to even say Christs (plural) loved the churches. You are really straining
a gnat here. There are, however, many husbands and many wives, therefore
it can be said both ways (5:23 & 25). But since you are contentious
over language use, try 1 Tim. 3:12, where husbands (plural) and wife
(singular) do not match. – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
7.)
“Water baptism doesn’t accomplish verse 30, but the Spirit baptism does!
(Eph. 4:5). Here’s a good quote, Herb. “The verse settles beyond any
question the matter of the local church and “the church, which is his
body. To say that Christ died for the local church would be nonsense.” –
Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
7. A.)
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be
joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. -- Eph.
5:31<br><br>
<br><br>
Water
baptism doesn’t satisfy verse 31. Neither does spirit baptism. It doesn’t
have to! The two bodies are one flesh, here on earth! Again, we are
comparing the relationship of the husband and wife with Christ and the
church. Christ is one body. The local church is his representative body
on earth. The relationship is two bodies, one flesh! <br><br>
You
don’t mysticize the husband/wife relationship. Why mysticize the
Christ/local church relationship? What about the saint and the harlot
being “one body” (1 Cor. 6:15-17)? What does water baptism have to do
with that. Spirit baptism? Show one passage, where one person is
baptized by the Holy Spirit? Just one! (except 1 Cor. 12:13, I will send
you a whole article on that.) – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
7. B.)
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the
first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you
at all seasons . . . Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the
flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the
church of God. which he hath purchased with his own blood. -- Acts
20:17,18, 28<br><br>
<br><br>
Yes,
Christ did die for the local church. We have our proof-text that He
did (unless it is nonsense). Where is your proof-text that He
didn’t? You admit that the churches in a locality were local in Acts 20.
You, therefore, admit that He died for these local churches that the
elders were told to feed. Could they feed your church in the sky?
--Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
8.)
The local church is the gathering together of certain members of the body
of Christ in a specific locality. Sometimes, there is more than one local
church in each locality. See Gal. 1:2; Acts 20; Phil. 1:1 for starters.
Isn’t it peculiar that Ephesians 1:1 is addressed to “the saints which
are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:”, but Paul refers to
“the church” (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 5:23,25,30). Galatians 1:13 is also a
reference to “the body of Christ.” If you think its just “the church of
Jerusalem” why don’t you read Acts 8: 1-3 with Acts 9:31, and tell me
“what that meaneth.” – Jeffrey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
8. A.)
No! I don’t think it is peculiar. I think Paul should be allowed to
address them as many ways as he liked. Why should the church/body in the
sky be subject to the church/body in the sky (Christ - Eph. 5:24)? As for
Gal. 1:13, Paul persecuted the church, generically speaking. Acts 8:1
says there was persecution against the “CHURCH (singular) WHICH WAS AT
JERUSALEM!” (single locality). Remember, the “mystery” of “the body of
Christ” was not revealed to Paul yet? The churches (plural) of many
localities (plural) of Acts 9:31 had rest. What do you want me to
compare? All your proof-texts are in my favor. – Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
9.)
“I’ll tell you what, Herb. Instead of sending you 20 pages, I’ll leave
you at this point to respond. If you do, we’ll continue. If not O.K.
Whatever you want. In further correspondence I’ll cover 1 Cor. 12; Gal.
3:26; Eph. 2: 1 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 10: 1 Cor 6: 1 Thess 1-2; Matthew
16:16-18 (be sure and get a head start by studying “the gates of hell
shall not PREVAIL AGAINST IT;” Eph. 3; the family of God (boy has that
been blown out of proportion); or anything else you can make a conjecture
of. Have fun with the milk. Let’s see how you handle it. In Christ (the
Body). P.S. I’m an Independent Baptist preacher from a local church in
Duncan, OK named Victory Baptist Church. Also, no part of this may be
reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I
play hard ball. Write back. -- Jefftey Nachimson<br><br>
<br><br>
9. A.)
You must think a great deal of yourself and your abilities. Perhaps, you
better give me the heavy stuff, the meat. That is after you answer my
questions. I’ve kept my part of the bargain. I have reproduced your
letter in its entirety, except for listing your sources and one redundant
quote. I have answered not only your questions but your points, listing
them under numbers and letters for easy reference (for both you and
me). I trust that you will keep your part of the bargain.<br><br>
<br><br>
I have
your “permission to reproduce” your letters (4/22/97). ‘Nuff said!
-- Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
Sincerely in Christ (positionally), Herb Evans<br><br>
<br><br>
See
Herb Evans’ Annotations on Jeffrey Nachimson’s response to Herb Evans’
letter of 4/26/97 below:<br><br>
<br><br>
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