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1000 Years in Hell - Critique Of Critique - 5
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John Henry
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Oct 08, 2004 23:05 PDT
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HERB EVANS CRITIQUES HERETIC JOEY FAUST'S CRITIQUE
By Herb Evans
E-mail: HerbE-@juno.com
41. Herb writes: "Joey, a split rapturist (careful not to use the words
'raised' and 'translated,' instead of 'raptured' or 'resurrected,')
believes the carnal will eventually be raptured AFTER the thousand year
kingdom."
Herb wrongly equates the words "rapture" and "resurrection." Enoch was
TRANSLATED, but he was never RESURRECTED. Lazarus was RAISED from the dead,
but he was never TRANSLATED. And he certainly was not raised NEVER TO DIE
AGAIN. I believe that living Christians who watch in holiness may be
translated before the tribulation period. Those who are still alive near
the end of the tribulation period will be translated at that time. I
believe the carnal Christians that do not repent will have to wait until
AFTER the Millennium to be resurrected to live eternally. They are not
"raptured" at the end of the Millennium. -- Joey Faust
Hey, a rose by any other name! Have it your way with onion and pickle, if
you like. Joey still has the same problem whether they are raptured or
translated. It is here that Joey has them getting their new body. Since
they are dead and in hell, they have to be resurrected at the end of the
1000 years per Joey's scheme. And that is plain falsehood. Joey just
delayed the inevitable with his qualification of words. Jesus allows for
only two resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of
damnation (John 5:29). Joey Faust has either a third resurrection or
combines a carnal Christian resurrection with the lost resurrection at the
end of the 1000 years. -- Herb Evans
42. Herb writes: "The real implication here is that the carnal believers,
by Joey's theory, are railroaded before they are judged. They are denied a
mortal body, when they are raptured before the JSOC (without an official
determination)."
I am not sure what Herb means by "raptured" here. But the degree of glory
they earned in life will indeed shine forth in the BODY of the believers.
There is a degree of confidence (or shame) a believer may have BEFORE he is
judged, based upon his or her conscience. The exact nature of the body a
carnal believer will be raised in at the Judgment Seat is open to debate
and conjecture. I only maintain that the carnal believer (in whatever type
of body he is raised in) may then experience the TERROR of the Lord, and be
banished to the underworld during the Millennium as described in Luke 12,
Mark 9, Matthew 18, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Revelation 2:11, Ephesians 5,
etc. -- Joey Faust
Well, this is a welcome concession from the former discussions that I had
with Joey in which he fell on the old mortal body side of conjecture and
debate. However, Joey has placed himself on the horns of a dilemma, for if
carnal believers have their old mortal bodies, they are punished BEFORE the
JSOC. If they have new bodies, Joey has the new incorruptible bodies killed
by God and thrown into the lake of fire and then into hell or as Joey says
the underworld. Now, it is most Christians' view that they will have an
INCORRUPTIBLE BODY. Something wrong here, Joey. Nevertheless, ". . . the
dead [not merely non carnal dead] shall be raised incorruptible [sounds
like a resurrection to me], and we shall ALL [no just the non carnal] be
changed For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must
put on immortality [sounds like an immortal body here also]."
(1Cor.15:52-53) -- Herb Evans
43. Herb writes: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD is with me, to
give EVERY MAN according as his WORK shall be. -- Rev. 22:12."
It appears that Herb quotes this verse as a proof-text. If so, now we have
Herb applying a verse in Revelation 22 to a Christian in this dispensation.
We have already seen him apply promises in the Gospels, as well as promises
from Hebrews. Therefore, it is clearly manifested that Herb picks and
chooses what he wishes to apply to the Christian according to whether or
not he likes the promise! If it sounds nice, Herb applies it to Christians.
If it is a strong warning, Herb ignores it or attempts to wiggle out from
under it. A few sentences later, Herb quotes another verse in the Book of
Revelation: "3.) Rev. 2:10 (Martyr's crown of life)." It is clear that Herb
applies this conditional promise to Christians today. -- Joey Faust
Herb sees nothing wrong with accepting a promise in Rev. 22:12 that is an
obvious postscript to the book of prophecy and its final invitation. Herb
Evans does not see any problem with that. -- Herb Evans
But he does everything he can under the sun to get out from under the
following verse:
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold,
the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye
shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will
give thee a crown of life.
This is only because Herb IMAGINES that getting a crown of LIFE has nothing
to do with the REWARD of LIVING with Christ during the 1000 years: --Joey Faust
Why should Herb try to get out from under someone making this passage the
present or the future, when the whole chapter is loaded with past tense,
including the names of an individual named Antipas (2:13). Why should I try
to get out from under something, which makes the FAITHFUL unto death "crown
of life" an escape from death at the JSOC or the lake of fire or hell, when
these things are not even in Joey's proof text? Joey just makes them up and
inserts them as he goes. -- Herb Evans
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. --Joey
Faust
Don't you just love this promise that promises the overcomers by the BLOOD
of the LAMB that they won't have to experience the second death in the lake
of fire. Or is it the third death since Joey says folks die at the judgment
seat a second time? Praise the Lord! -- Herb Evans
Revelation 20:4....and THEY LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 2:10-11 is saying the same thing in two different ways. If the
believer overcomes, he will get a crown of LIFE. If he overcomes, he will
NOT be hurt of the second DEATH. If Herb had read my book, he would have
realized that the verse he quoted in Revelation 22 is against his view.
There are positive AND negative rewards. Some will be REWARDED with a
scourging and Millennial banishment. Notice how REWARDS may be positive or
negative:
Proverbs 26:10 The great God that formed all things both REWARDETH the
fool, and REWARDETH transgressors. -- Joey Faust
Yeah, and it rains on the just and the unjust; moot point. -- Herb Evans
44. Herb writes: "The crowns that are outlined above have nothing to do
with obtaining a resurrection nor any entrance into the Millennial kingdom
nor escaping punishment from a Baptist purgatory, hell, or lake of fire."
Again, the reader is supposed to believe this statement because Herb said
it. Yet, the apostle Paul identified the PRIZE with the first resurrection
and Millennial reign:
Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection,
and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his
death; 11 IF BY ANY MEANS I might attain unto the RESURRECTION of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I
follow after, if that I may apprehend THAT for which also I am apprehended
of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but
this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching
forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for
THE PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, we are not interested in anyone's opinions concerning crowns and
prizes. Paul tells us that he strives for the resurrection, which he later
calls the PRIZE. He uses the same word elsewhere, where he likewise tells
us he is striving for it: -- Joey Faust
Joey makes three mistakes here. Paul did not say "I might attain the
resurrection of the dead," Paul said "I might attain UNTO the resurrection
of the dead." The second mistake is to interpret the word "attain unto" to
mean "acquire," for the idea here is arriving or reaching. The third
mistake is to mistake the "prize" to be the resurrection, when it is the
"high calling of God IN Christ Jesus." In Joey Faust's system both carnal
and non-carnal Christians get resurrected at different times, so surely he
can't mean that carnal Christians will not be resurrected at some time or
other, but his contradictory interpretation of this passage will not allow
them to ever resurrect. Therefore, we are not interested in Joey's
misinterpretations and mistakes. Paul was not striving for a resurrection;
Paul was striving for a BETTER resurrection (Heb. 11:35). -- Herb Evans
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but
one receiveth THE PRIZE? So run, that YE MAY OBTAIN. 25 And every man that
striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to
obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so
run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any
means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.
In Philippians Paul says he labors, if by an means he may win the prize,
which he links to being resurrected. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul says he
labors to obtain the prize, and tells other believers to also run for it.
He tells us that those who do not obtain the prize, will be CASTAWAY. --
Joey Faust
Now, it is the MASTERY that obtains the prize of the incorruptible crown of
the HIGH CALLING OF GOD. Paul was concerned about being an unused, on the
shelf, castaway reject by losing the race's rewards or suffering that loss.
Linking something to the resurrection does not demand that either
salvation, eternal life, or the resurrection is gained or lost by the link,
except in Faust's imagination. --Herb Evans
45. Herb writes: "There are all different kinds of crown rewards that will
be cast before the Lord's throne before the millennial kingdom (Rev. 4:10)."
Herb now appeals to Revelation 4:10:
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on
the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their
crowns before the throne, saying...
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: HOLD that fast which thou hast,
that no man TAKE THY CROWN.
1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate
in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible CROWN; but we an
incorruptible.
First, there is nothing in the verse about multiple crowns on an individual
Elder's head (not that it would matter anyway). These "Elders"(plural) had
crowns on their heads (Revelation 4:4). I hold that these Elders represent
the living Christians who will be rewarded with Millennial priesthood at
the pre-trib rapture (Revelation 5:10, 20:6). These Elders have been
translated BEFORE the tribulation period. They know they will reign on
earth (Revelation 5:10). This is therefore a special class of overcoming
believers. They ALL have crowns. But ALL Christians will not receive a
crown: Therefore, these 24 Elders do NOT represent ALL Christians. The
Bible says the crowns are conditional. The various adjectives applied to
the crown (life, glory, righteousness) are all summed up in what the crown
represents. The crown represents a KINGDOM. It represents LIVING and
reigning with Christ in GLORY during the Millennium, which is a REWARD for
being experientially RIGHTEOUS. Herb's apparent idea that ALL Christians
receive some type of crown, regardless of their degree of service, is
without foundation. Herb argues that surely every Christians will have
"something" worth praising. But this fails to realize that the manner in
which a Christian has been living at rapture or right before death plays a
big part in the Christian's judgment (Luke 12:45). This principle of
judgment is also seen in the OT: -- Joey Faust
While Joey Faust is right about the plural crowns and plural elders not
demanding multiple crowns, it also does not demand one crown per elder.
Nevertheless, the different, multiple crowns that are obtainable are named
throughout the scripture, i.e., the crown of life (Rev. 1:12), the crown of
glory (1 pet. 5:4), the crown of rejoicing (1 Thess. 2:19), the
incorruptible crown (1 Cor. 9:25), the soul winners crown (Phil. 4:1, and
the crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8). Joey has just delayed the
inevitability of multiple crowns that are available. We are not contesting
that some believers will not receive any crowns or will not suffer any loss
or that every Christian will or will not get any crowns. This is a Joey
Faust straw man. We are contesting Joey's missing link that the crowns have
something to do with not getting killed at the JSOC or being thrown into
the lake of fire or hell. --Herb Evans
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall
have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be TAKEN AWAY even that
which he hath. 30 And cast ye the UNPROFITABLE SERVANT into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -- Joey Faust
Do you see anything about crowns here? We don't. We see TALENTS HERE. This
is more of Joey Faust's practice of connecting verses and concepts that
should not be connected. It also reflects Joey Faust's misunderstood, "end
time" frame. This occurs after the tribulation and after the marriage and
after the JSOC, after the Son returns. Moreover, when Joey sees the word
servant, he does not realize the word need not demand a saved believer.
Israel, whether saved or not, was God's servant. Cyrus was God's servant
whether saved or unsaved. Joey's servants are lost. Note it is profitable
servants versus unprofitable servants. This is why Joey likes parables; he
can mess with them. -- Herb Evans
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the RIGHTEOUS turneth away from his righteousness,
and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that
the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath
done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and
in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The
way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way
equal? are not your ways unequal? -- Joey Faust
Dying physically and the lake of fire and the JSOC are three different
things. Nevertheless, you can see how Joey forces them to link together.
Even a saint in this dispensation can live it for a while, backslide, and
be chastised and be killed by the Lord here on earth. We had that happen
to a man in our church. --Herb Evans
According to Herb's reasoning, the Corinthians should not have
disfellowshipped the fornicator; they should have gathered around him and
praised him for all the OTHER good things that he may have done! The Lord
is righteous, and He will not forget the good deeds we have done for Him
(Hebrews 6:10). But He will not allow us to trust in past obedience as a
justification for present sin. The mercy we show to others, will certainly
grant us a degree of mercy at the Judgment Seat (James 2:13). But how we
are FOUND, in death or rapture, plays a very large part in our judgment.
Notice, we are to beware, lest we be FOUND of Him in an unwatchful, unholy
state: -- Joey Faust
This is a total misrepresentation of Herb Evans, another Joey Faust straw
man. Paul urged the church to commit the fornicator to Satan, so that his
SPIRIT might be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus (JSOC, 1 Cor. 5:5). --
Herb Evans
Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom THE LORD when HE COMETH shall
FIND WATCHING: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make
them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be
diligent that ye may be FOUND of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
A crown technically gained, may be lost (Revelation 3:11). Rewards
technically gained, may be forfeited by future conduct:
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we LOSE NOT those things which we have
wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
If the Lord was able to divide Israel into two groups when Joshua and Caleb
were praised and the rest were rejected, He may certainly divide Christians
into two groups (faithful and unfaithful). -- Joey Faust
More Joey Faust Straw men and "technical" weasel wording. Herb Evans does
not contest loss of rewards or loss of crowns or partial rewards. Herb
Evans contests Joey Faust's view of the crown and Joey's heretical theory
that Christians are not ALL raptured or translated or resurrected or of
having continuous eternal life. The desperate attempt to compare Joshua and
Caleb to burning and non-burning Christians is too ridiculous to respond.
-- Herb Evans
46. Herb writes: "Paul was running in a RACE and pressing toward the MARK
of the high calling of God, i.e., the MASTERY PRIZE. He was not in a race
for the resurrection nor the kingdom nor was Paul concerned about losing
the resurrection nor the kingdom."
Herb does not DEFINE what the MASTERY PRIZE is! He simply tells us that
(even though Paul linked the prize and the resurrection) the prize is NOT
the first resurrection. He offers no proof. He does not attempt to explain
what Paul means by RESURRECTION. The reader is to simply understand that
when Herb says something is NOT, it is NOT! Herb says Paul was not in a
race for the KINGDOM. But notice the following verses: -- Joey Faust
No, Herb does not say the prize is NOT linked to the first resurrection,
for Herb Evans believes the prize applies to the first resurrection, since
Herb Evans does not believe that believers will be in the resurrection of
damnation (2nd). Better read it again, Joey. Herb Evans did define the
mastery as the "HIGH CALLING of God." Reading problem, Joey? Didn't Joey
read my booklet? -- Herb Evans
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to
continue in the faith, and that we MUST through much tribulation enter into
the KINGDOM of God.
2 Timothy 2:12 If WE suffer, WE shall also reign with him: if WE deny him,
he also will deny US:
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live GODLY in Christ Jesus shall
suffer persecution.
All believers do not live godly, and all believers do not suffer
persecution. Therefore, all believers will not reign. Christians who do not
let their light shine before men, and who will not witness, will not reign
when Christ appears. The various KINGDOM warnings to the saints in 1
Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5, also make this point clear.
--Joey Faust
Joey, here, wants to get our attention away from the lake of fire, hell,
and the slaying at the JSOC of believers and trying to sidetrack us into a
kingdom discussion, where he can really muddy the water. As we said before,
we will not accommodate him in changing the subject. Nevertheless,
suffering is not a requirement for salvation or eternal life, unless you
are an ascetic. --Herb Evans
47. Herb writes: AThe kings and priests, which were made by God in Rev.
5:10, were made so by the blood by which Christ redeemed them in Rev. 5:9,
long before the JSOC. Believers are made kings and priests by his blood
BEFORE he comes (Rev. 1:6) and are NOW a HOLY and ROYAL PRIESTHOOD (1 Peter
2:5, 9)? NOT BY RUNNING ANY RACE NOR some CROWNING EVENT."
Herb fails to distinguish between the salvation and privileges in eternity
that every Christian will one day experience through Christ's Blood, and
the Millennial privileges that will be experienced only by those who apply
Christ's Blood in SANCTIFICATION (i.e. the Christian walk). Christ's Blood
does more than save a believer in eternity. When the believer WALKS by
faith, the Blood of the Covenant CLEANSES the saint (Hebrews 13:20-21). If
a Christian does not WALK in this grace by faith, he will not be
practically sanctified: -- Joey Faust
Despite the double tongued double talk here, Joey Faust ends up with blood
bought kings and priests in hell and the lake of fire. We fail to see the
word "privileges" in this passage. This is merely a meaningless, worthless,
pat answer ploy. Joey fails to distinguish between his positional
sanctification and his practical sanctification, his positional cleansing
and his practical cleansing in regard to eternal life. -- Herb Evans
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses'
law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer
punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under
foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith
he WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit
of grace?
This is not a loss of positional sanctification. It is a loss of practical,
experiential sanctification in the Christian walk. We must receive this
daily power: --Joey Faust
Where does Joey get all these extra scriptural terms. He is beginning to
sound like a Calvinist. Positional sanctification by the blood is never
lost, therefore eternal life is never lost. You either have practical
sanctification or you don't; it is not something you lose. Joey's passage
is asking what THEY SUPPOSE or thought about a worthy sorer punishment for
these offenders. Physical death was being discussed in regard to Moses law.
Somehow, Joey ends up with the lake of fire here in his doctrine by
inference and innuendo. -- Herb Evans
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, LET
US HAVE GRACE, whereby we may SERVE God acceptably with reverence and godly
fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD;
lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be
defiled;
Numbers 32:7 And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of
Israel from going over into the LAND which the LORD HATH GIVEN THEM?
Numbers 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye
be come into the land of your habitations, WHICH I GIVE UNTO YOU, [See
also: Leviticus 14:34, 23:10, 25:2]
Herb also does not realize that the Millennial reward has been
"technically" GIVEN to every believer, the same way the promised land was
technically GIVEN to the Israelites: Nevertheless, most of these Israelites
did not obtain that which they had been given. In the same way, the REWARD
of ruling and reigning with Christ is already given unto us. But, unlike
eternal salvation, we must CONQUER through HIS POWER if we will obtain
Millennial entrance and glory. It is no wonder that the kingdom and the
priesthood is spoken of in certain places as something we already possess.
The CROWN itself is spoken of in the same manner: --Joey Faust
Joey has again resorted to verse flinging with no pertinent rationale or
exegesis in his quest to prove God is an Indian giver. Joey claims God's
GIFT must be worked for, as Joey, tired of using parables for doctrine,
runs to the Old Testament to prove that we should not believe that we can
keep what was given to us believers, unless we work for it. Like we said
some time ago, Joey Faust is the apostle of UNCERTAINTY. Joey, like a
Catholic, will never tell you how much is required to get you in or keep
you out. -- Herb Evans
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast,
that no man take THY CROWN.
In one sense, no Christian possesses the crown. It is a future prize. But
there is a sense in which all believers already possess the crown (i.e. the
same sense in which the Israelites already possessed entrance into the
promised land). Esau already possessed his birthright in a technical sense.
But we may sometimes lose certain things which we have been given. The
Millennial reign is conditioned upon conquering, overcoming, and suffering
by the power of His Blood, through grace. We may lose the crown of life,
and we may be blotted out of the Book of Life (unbelievers are not in the
Book of Life, in regard to the Millennium): -- Joey Faust
By now, it should be obvious that Joey has no scripture for backing up his
lake of fire theory for believers, so he must resort to this "technical"
mumbo jumbo to prove that God is an Indian giver, quite similar to the
tactics of Bible correctors. You know, "In a technical sense the English
Bible is inspired, etc. and etc. He has the persistence of a cult member in
his quest to prove that God has not saved us to the UTTERMOST. Texas
produces another David Koresh. -- Herb Evans
Revelation 3:5 He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white
raiment; and I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME out of the book of life, but I
will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Notice, the name is already in the Book (of Millennial life). If the
Christian overcomes the giants, he will not lose the crown of LIFE and be
blotted out of the Book of LIFE. In other words, he will not be hurt of the
second death, and he will rule and reign with Jesus during the
Millennium. -- Joey Faust
Joey Faust loves to change the "I will NOT" promises of God's word into
the possibility that he WILL do what He says He will not do. Here is one of
the main tenets of the OVERCOMERS' CULT. You must over come by works and
not by the BLOOD to escape the lake of fire and hell and the JSOC slaying.
Believers are not blotted out of the Book of Life. Joey does not have one
proof text that shows this happening anywhere. But how do they get back in
the Book of Life in order to avoid being thrown back into the lake of fire
with the lost? --Herb Evans
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