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RE: [NWWC] more thoughts.
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MINDY ZIFFREN-Hall
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Sep 10, 2004 19:42 PDT
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Great points Shannon. I especially like your point about possibly decreasing
the points spread w/in races for a balance of participation and competition
based rewards. GREAT!
Mindy
| | From: "Payne, Shannon R" <spa-@fhcrc.org>
Reply-To: NW-@topica.com
To: "'NW-@topica.com'" <NW-@topica.com>
Subject: [NWWC] more thoughts.
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:37:53 -0700
I'd like to jump in with a few comments.
1. I agree with Michelle that allotting points for track races is
positive,
but could get out of hand. Since the main incentive is to get women
exploring the "world" of bike racing, perhaps we could allot participation
points for a night of racing at the track regardless of how many races you
do?
2. Regarding a competition vs. participation based series, I feel that it
should be a combination of the two. Like Mindy says, racing is not just
about participation but competition as well. That said, I think the level
of competition in the women's cat 4's is becoming prohibitively high for
many true beginners. I am not talking about women who have competed
successfully in triathlon, running, rowing, etc. and have now decided to
give bike racing a try. It's great that they're coming over and finding
joy
in our sport, but the reality is that they are already active and have
clearly made a commitment to that as evidenced by their non-biking
successes.
I am talking about the true sports novice. I may be wrong, but I have felt
that NWWC was about opening the world of fitness to women through the lens
of bike racing and providing them a place to hone their fitness w/o being
dropped by women who have been active for years. It's these women who I
think are beginning to be displaced by the massive success NWWC has made in
increasing participation in women's bike racing. These days, many new cat4
racers could easily take their place fitness-wise beside seasoned cat3
racers (technique and skill aside). The true beginner is once again riding
by herself wondering why she should finish the race and come back the next
week for her measly 15 or 25 participation points which will not net her
even inside the top 20-25 by the end of the season.
One suggestion is to increase the emphasis on participation by the
decreasing the difference points-wise btwn winning the race and just
participating. This might create a better balance btwn women who
participate routinely vs those who come out and do very well just a few
times. This would maintain the spirit of competition (someone who
participates and does well on a regular basis will always beat someone who
partipates regularly without placing) while increasing the incentive to new
women to keep coming out. Another by-product might be that there is less
incentive to race just a couple times a year and win.
3. Finally, regarding the "great stage race points" debate, I think that
Eric's suggestion is the best I have heard. One thought that I have is to
perhaps make the total points out of 150 instead of 100. I think most
will
agree that it is harder to go and complete a stage race than it is to show
up for and complete a one day race and racers should be rewarded for that
effort. I strongly believe that stage races are a great and positive
experience for a new racer and new racers should be encouraged to
participate.
just some thoughts to add to the mix...
best,
Shan
-----Original Message-----
From: MINDY ZIFFREN-Hall [ mailto:mzif-@msn.com
<mailto:mzif-@msn.com>
]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 10:05 AM
To: NW-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [NWWC] One of these days...
Only thing I feel really strongly aboout is leaving this as a
competition-based thing. I don't necessarilyl feel it should be a
participation-based series. There are processes in place that limit how
many
points a rider can earn based upon when she hits the mandatory uscf upgrade
level. That reduces sandbagging. I feel strongly though that this should be
based upon performance and participation. The participation part comes in
by
allowing riders participation points for ALL races, in many disciplines
now.
I doubt I'll be able to make Monday's call so please consider my stance on
this one point.
Thanks,
Mindy
| | From: Michelle Maislen <mich-@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: NW-@topica.com
To: NW-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [NWWC] One of these days...
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:56:24 -0700
For the record, I totally agree that allotting points for track races is
a plus, but how would we do that? Would they all be lumped in together
or called out separately? My concern is that it's going to give some an
unfair advantage and/or make others feel pressured to race track in
order to maintain high standings.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lynch [ mailto:ely-@bigfoot.com <mailto:ely-@bigfoot.com>
|
]
| | Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:40 AM
To: NW-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [NWWC] One of these days...
Joyce - you make some great points about our focus. I'm looking forward
to
reading your revised mission statement.
As to assigning points from non-road races: It's a moot point (no pun
intended) for 99.9% of the racers in the series anyway. I think there
was
only one person in the Cat 4 series who requested non-road points. So
the
impact to our racers by saying this is a road-only series should be
minimal.
Regards,
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce LaGow [ mailto:joyce-@hotmail.com
|
<mailto:joyce-@hotmail.com> ]
| | Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 11:59 PM
To: NW-@topica.com
Subject: Re: [NWWC] One of these days...
The Cat 4 series next year will likely be participation-based, not
points
based. Participation-based = cash/prizes resulting from racing a set
number
of races on the WSBA calendar. It's my understanding that NWWC's
objective
is to educate and inspire women cycling enthusiasts, so in my opinion
the
cat 4 series should take the pressure off and encourage discovery.
* By making the series based on performance, you lose an audience with
weaker riders relatively quickly into the season.
* By making the series singularly focused on the road, you discourage
riders
exploring other cycling activities like track
* By encouraging women to continue to race as the season matures, they
will
become stronger and their results will improve which should in turn
improve
the upgrade rate.
* I'm also in favor of including mid-week training races as well, but
primarily to support our local promoters and show them that women's
cycling
is a viable contributor to their businesses.
However, we can't be responsible for tracking the results of every
single
cycling event in the NW for beginning racers - it's overwhelming. I'd
like
to continue the partnership w/ the MVA because there is so much
cross-over
between road racing & track in the NW, but I don't see a reason to track
mtn
biking, especially when they aren't governed by the USCF and race under
a
different classification system and different rules.
I would support continuing the Cat 3 series on the road, and not
including
the track, since I also think we don't want to be in the business of
keeping
track of who is a 3 on the track as well - this would be business as
usual
for the '05 season, yes?
This is a great topic for discussion for the core team.
Thanks again Eric for your thoughts! Good luck to Suz in SF and have
fun :)
- JLG
----- Original Message -----
From: "MINDY ZIFFREN-Hall" <mzif-@msn.com>
To: <NW-@topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: [NWWC] One of these days...
Good points, thanks Eric! Now get some sleep and I"ll see ya soon!
Did we score other non-road events in this year's 2004 Series into our
road
racing Series?
I don't think we should include points for any events outside of a Road
race. Perhaps I missed this point if it was included in this year's
Series.
I feel strongly though that this is a Road series.
Thanks,
Mindy
| | From: Eric Lynch <ely-@bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: NW-@topica.com
To: NW-@topica.com
Subject: [NWWC] One of these days...
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:09:22 -0400
I will learn to send e-mail properly.
Last night I wrote a very lengthy reply to Kirstin's excellent note
|
about
| | her efforts tracking the Cat 4 series and a few concerns that she had.
|
This
| | will be a very abridged version of what I spent much time writing, and
|
to
| | my
great surprise appears to have never been sent. (Read: operator error)
First: Kirstin, many thanks for actig as pointskeeper for the Cat 4
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series
| | for two years. You've done a stellar job in taking over from Sarah and
have
made the series possible for these beginner women. Good luck in your
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future
| | project management efforts!
Second: Here are the three items I think we should change in the series
"rules". I wrote long, long paragraphs on the "why" of my logic in the
"lost" e-mail. These are the short, but hopefully as effective,
|
versions:
| |
1. Cycling Events Outside the Series: Any cycling event outside of the
series that a rider participates in will count as 15 points for that
|
rider.
| | These non-series events must be events that any Cat 4 rider could
participte
in as a beginner. Ie: Cat 4 track racing is fine, but Cat 3 is not. The
same
would be tru of mountain bike racing: Beginner races count; higer level
races do not. By this guideline, masters events would not qualify as
|
other
| | racers in the senior ranks would not always qualify.
2. Stage races: I agree with Kirstin that we should not "triple score"
stage races. However not everyone does all three stages, so GC placing
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is
| | also somewhat biased. I propose that we offer 1/3 of the usuals points
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for
| | each stage in the race (ie: 1st place in any stage would be worth 33.3
poits
vs 100 points). A bit of a pain to score, but more fair to more riders
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in
| | more situations.
3. Last minute changes: As long as we send out regular updates to the
series on nwcycling in '05, I think it would be easy to put a
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reasonable
| | deadline by which time we will no longer accept "corrections". Since
|
we
| | publish what we have to the listserv, it should be the riders'
responsibilities to verify their data is correct and let us know in a
reasonable time. Both Kirstin and I had people e-mail at the last
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minute,
| | and some even after the awards ceremony. So if we set a deadline and
publish
it, the riders should be able to work within the time frame we give
|
them. I
| | hope that makes sense, as I am falling asleep as I write this.
I also hope my spelling errors are minimal tonight :-), but that's too
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much
| | to hope for. We're over-nighting in Montreal before heading to SF
|
tomorrow
| | morning at 6 am (ouch), so I have an excuse this time.
See you next week,
Eric
|
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