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RE: [CABOdir] Re: CABODir, CABOForum, and CABO Blog - Purposes and Justificatio
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Dan Gutierrez
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Aug 17, 2009 15:10 PDT
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Serge wrote: "Why move the email list with the possibility that it will be eliminated shortly? Why not discuss the idea first? Because it's not formally on the table? That's your argument? I respect process, but please."
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What possibility that it will be eliminated shortly? This is merely speculation on your part, and by insulting us based on your speculation, you show disrespect for process and those of us that follow process.
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Given your lack of respect for process and willingness to insult those of us who follow process, I'm not interested in anything more you have to write on the subject.
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- Dan -
From: cabo-@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo-@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:52 PM
To: Dan Gutierrez
Cc: CABO-@googlegroups.com
Subject: [CABOdir] Re: CABODir, CABOForum, and CABO Blog - Purposes and Justifications
I'm just saying that Brian has an interesting idea that, if adopted, would eliminate the email list. Why move the email list with the possibility that it will be eliminated shortly? Why not discuss the idea first? Because it's not formally on the table? That's your argument? I respect process, but please. If we do replace the list with the blog that would mean leaving it archived. If we move it to google groups first, then we'll have two email archives instead of one.
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gut-@charter.net> wrote:
Serge,
There is no motion to replace CABOForum with a blog, just an informal suggestion. Frankly I'm tired of directors making unilateral decisions to subvert board agreements, and I don't care if it seems silly to you. You appear not to respect process, and this is a serious problem to me. You can't logically have it both ways. There is no motion to replace the forum with a blog, so there can be no "prematurely reached consensus" to keep the forum which we have not previously agreed to eliminate. And furthermore, it is quite insulting for you to accuse us of a "prematurely-reached consensus" for a motion (to replace the forum with a blog) that has not been brought before the board.
You Serge are guilty of "prematurely-reached accusation".
- Dan -
From: Serge Issakov [mailto:serge.i-@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:01 PM
To: Dan Gutierrez
Cc: afor-@mac.com; bp-@briandesousa.com; CABO-@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOdir] Re: Fwd: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
Dan,
In general I agree, but when a current discussion might lead to an agreement that nullifies a previous agreement, I don't see the point in following through on that previous agreement until the current discussion leads to a decision one way or the other, unless there is a particular pressing need to follow through on the previous agreement. Like I said, doing so just seems silly to me (no, it's not silly to follow through on an agreement; it's silly to follow through on something that might shortly be rendered pointless).
That said, it seems like a prematurely-reached consensus exists to not replace the email list with the blog. I say "prematurely-reached" because of the lack of substantive discussion about the idea and presumed lack of proper consideration for it.
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gut-@charter.net> wrote:
Serge,
As Paul rightly pointed out, we had agreed to move the list. We should follow through on our agreements, and then decide if the blog is a reasonable substitute. Discussion of the blog in no way invalidates the prior agreement to move CABOForum.
- Dan -
From: cabo-@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo-@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:43 PM
To: afor-@mac.com
Cc: bp-@briandesousa.com; CABO-@googlegroups.com
Subject: [CABOdir] Re: Fwd: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
If I understand Brian's idea, it is to eliminate the mailing list by replacing it with use of the blog. While this idea is being discussed, it seems silly to move the mailing list that might be eliminated. What's the hurry?
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com> wrote:
This move does not replace anything Brian is doing. Anything you can say pro or con about CABO maintaining email lists as well as a blog will be as true after the move as before. As such, I don't really understand this controversy.
Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
afor-@mac.com
On Aug 17, 2009, at 12:45 PM, Serge Issakov wrote:
I think everything changed when Brian suggested, for the first time, a very new (for us) idea: to REPLACE the email list with the blog. I haven't gotten my head completely around the idea yet, but I do agree with Brian and Michael that it's premature to announce the move of the mailing list while this idea is being considered and discussed among the directors.
I am concerned that only directors can start new topics on the blog. I understand the concerns, since it's on our main page, but that might be a deal breaker for me. In practical terms it might not matter much in the near future, but I hate to be locked into that mode by technology. I know I was a member who posted new topics before I became a director, and I suspect there are others out there too. I would like to see more people encouraged to participate. Maybe we could have a "wide open" blog that is not on our main page, and particularly good topics could be moved from there to the main blog when appropriate?
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com> wrote:
We moved CABOdir shortly after the winter CABo meeting. It was my understanding at the time that if there were no problems seen, we would move CABOforum at some time in the near future. In June, Serge asked about progress, and Bob Shanteau volunteered to shepherd the move but needed input from me. He has been nudging me monthly, and I was finally able to free some time for it this month. No objections were raised when Serge raised the question. From June forward, there were no objections to the move, and we finally have time to act. No that moving CABOforum involves no financial commitment from CABO but only the effort of 2 willing volunteers.
I believe that blogs and email discussions serve different but overlapping purposes. Blogs are a better way to broadcast information and opinion but provide limited opportunity for discussion (sorry, comments added to web page don't constitute a discussion). Email lists don't work well for announcements but are a more robust way to gather information and discuss issues. They are both valuable.
Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
afor-@mac.com
On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Brian DeSousa wrote:
To: CABO Forum <cabof-@topica.com>
From: Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com>
Subject: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:58:00 -0700
From the CABOforum list manager:
CABO has decided to move the list to Google Groups, which should more
flexibility, options, and is better managed than Topica. The new group
will be active at the end of this week, with everyone who is
subscribed to the Topica group as of this upcoming Wednesday as
initial members.
Why have we posted this to the CABO forum, when we were still discussing on CABOdir whether or not to have a new list after closing out the Topica one?
If I'm the only dissenter, and the rest of the board is in silent agreement to have a new list on Google Groups, I'm OK with that. But I would consider it common courtesy to hold off on posting to the membership until it's clear the discussion is over.
Yes, we did discuss moving the list from Topica a long time ago, and I didn't have any objections back then. But in my view the use of email discussion lists and blogs has changed enough since then to warrant a reaffirmation. If not, then why have I wasted my time trying to upgrade the website/blog?
Migrating the list isn't so important that it couldn't have waited a couple of days, especially since we've waited so long already.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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