Re: [CABOdir] Re: CABODir, CABOForum, and CABO Blog - Purposes and
Justificati
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Serge Issakov
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Aug 17, 2009 15:37 PDT
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Yeah, it's "merely speculation"... just like saying "there is a possibility
that it will land heads" about an about-to-be-tossed coin is "merely
speculation".
I did not intend to insult or show disrespect to anyone or to process in
general when I noted that declaring Brian's idea to be unreasonable without
discussion (and, apparently, without proper consideration) seemed premature
to me.
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gut-@charter.net>wrote:
| | Serge wrote: "Why move the email list with the possibility that it will
be eliminated shortly? Why not discuss the idea first? Because it's not
formally on the table? That's your argument? I respect process, but
please."
.
What possibility that it will be eliminated shortly? This is merely
speculation on your part, and by insulting us based on your speculation, you
show disrespect for process and those of us that follow process.
.
Given your lack of respect for process and willingness to insult those of
us who follow process, I'm not interested in anything more you have to write
on the subject.
.
.
- Dan -
*From:* cabo-@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo-@googlegroups.com] *On
Behalf Of *Serge Issakov
*Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 2:52 PM
*To:* Dan Gutierrez
*Cc:* CABO-@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* [CABOdir] Re: CABODir, CABOForum, and CABO Blog - Purposes and
Justifications
I'm just saying that Brian has an interesting idea that, if adopted, would
eliminate the email list. Why move the email list with the possibility that
it will be eliminated shortly? Why not discuss the idea first? Because it's
not formally on the table? That's your argument? I respect process, but
please. If we do replace the list with the blog that would mean leaving it
archived. If we move it to google groups first, then we'll have two email
archives instead of one.
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gut-@charter.net>
wrote:
Serge,
There is no motion to replace CABOForum with a blog, just an informal
suggestion. Frankly I'm tired of directors making unilateral decisions to
subvert board agreements, and I don't care if it seems silly to you. You
appear not to respect process, and this is a serious problem to me. You
can't logically have it both ways. There is no motion to replace the forum
with a blog, so there can be no "prematurely reached consensus" to keep the
forum which we have not previously agreed to eliminate. And furthermore, it
is quite insulting for you to accuse us of a "prematurely-reached consensus"
for a motion (to replace the forum with a blog) that has not been brought
before the board.
You Serge are guilty of "prematurely-reached accusation".
- Dan -
*From:* Serge Issakov [mailto:serge.i-@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 2:01 PM
*To:* Dan Gutierrez
*Cc:* afor-@mac.com; bp-@briandesousa.com; CABO-@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [CABOdir] Re: Fwd: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
Dan,
In general I agree, but when a current discussion might lead to an
agreement that nullifies a previous agreement, I don't see the point in
following through on that previous agreement until the current discussion
leads to a decision one way or the other, unless there is a particular
pressing need to follow through on the previous agreement. Like I said,
doing so just seems silly to me (no, it's not silly to follow through on an
agreement; it's silly to follow through on something that might shortly be
rendered pointless).
That said, it seems like a prematurely-reached consensus exists to not
replace the email list with the blog. I say "prematurely-reached" because
of the lack of substantive discussion about the idea and presumed lack of
proper consideration for it.
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gut-@charter.net>
wrote:
Serge,
As Paul rightly pointed out, we had agreed to move the list. We should
follow through on our agreements, and then decide if the blog is a
reasonable substitute. Discussion of the blog in no way invalidates the
prior agreement to move CABOForum.
- Dan -
*From:* cabo-@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo-@googlegroups.com] *On
Behalf Of *Serge Issakov
*Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 1:43 PM
*To:* afor-@mac.com
*Cc:* bp-@briandesousa.com; CABO-@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* [CABOdir] Re: Fwd: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
If I understand Brian's idea, it is to eliminate the mailing list by
replacing it with use of the blog. While this idea is being discussed, it
seems silly to move the mailing list that might be eliminated. What's the
hurry?
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com> wrote:
This move does not replace anything Brian is doing. Anything you can say
pro or con about CABO maintaining email lists as well as a blog will be as
true after the move as before. As such, I don't really understand this
controversy.
Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
afor-@mac.com
On Aug 17, 2009, at 12:45 PM, Serge Issakov wrote:
I think everything changed when Brian suggested, for the first time, a very
new (for us) idea: to REPLACE the email list with the blog. I haven't
gotten my head completely around the idea yet, but I do agree with Brian and
Michael that it's premature to announce the move of the mailing list while
this idea is being considered and discussed among the directors.
I am concerned that only directors can start new topics on the blog. I
understand the concerns, since it's on our main page, but that might be a
deal breaker for me. In practical terms it might not matter much in the
near future, but I hate to be locked into that mode by technology. I know I
was a member who posted new topics before I became a director, and I suspect
there are others out there too. I would like to see more people encouraged
to participate. Maybe we could have a "wide open" blog that is not on our
main page, and particularly good topics could be moved from there to the
main blog when appropriate?
Serge
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com> wrote:
We moved CABOdir shortly after the winter CABo meeting. It was my
understanding at the time that if there were no problems seen, we would move
CABOforum at some time in the near future. In June, Serge asked about
progress, and Bob Shanteau volunteered to shepherd the move but needed input
from me. He has been nudging me monthly, and I was finally able to free some
time for it this month. No objections were raised when Serge raised the
question. From June forward, there were no objections to the move, and we
finally have time to act. No that moving CABOforum involves no financial
commitment from CABO but only the effort of 2 willing volunteers.
I believe that blogs and email discussions serve different but overlapping
purposes. Blogs are a better way to broadcast information and opinion but
provide limited opportunity for discussion (sorry, comments added to web
page don't constitute a discussion). Email lists don't work well for
announcements but are a more robust way to gather information and discuss
issues. They are both valuable.
Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
afor-@mac.com
On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Brian DeSousa wrote:
To: CABO Forum <cabof-@topica.com>
From: Alan Forkosh <afor-@mac.com>
Subject: [CABO] CABOforum moving to Google Groups
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:58:00 -0700
From the CABOforum list manager:
CABO has decided to move the list to Google Groups, which should more
flexibility, options, and is better managed than Topica. The new group
will be active at the end of this week, with everyone who is
subscribed to the Topica group as of this upcoming Wednesday as
initial members.
Why have we posted this to the CABO forum, when we were still discussing on
CABOdir whether or not to have a new list after closing out the Topica one?
If I'm the only dissenter, and the rest of the board is in silent agreement
to have a new list on Google Groups, I'm OK with that. But I would consider
it common courtesy to hold off on posting to the membership until it's clear
the discussion is over.
Yes, we did discuss moving the list from Topica a long time ago, and I
didn't have any objections back then. But in my view the use of email
discussion lists and blogs has changed enough since then to warrant a
reaffirmation. If not, then why have I wasted my time trying to upgrade the
website/blog?
Migrating the list isn't so important that it couldn't have waited a couple
of days, especially since we've waited so long already.
Brian
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