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Re: written and signed by over 200 U.S. theologians	David McKellip
	Oct 23, 2004 20:10 PDT

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There is frost on the potatoes in Idaho Tonight boys and girls.....
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Douglas Archer<mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>
To: cob-@topica.com<mailto:cob-@topica.com>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [cobnv] written and signed by over 200 U.S. theologians

Dave,

Whoops! I really didn't mean to imply that you needed to supply
proof. But if I ever want to quote it (I might, it's a great statement),
it would be nice to indicate the source. Besides, I like to go back to
sources. Pointing me to Sojourners is just fine. So, you're off the
hook. : )

BTW, I still have my potato pin.

Thanks very much!

Doug

At 01:08 AM 10/22/2004, you wrote:
>I was quoting from Sojo Magazine by Jim Wallace.....I just loved what it
>said so I passed it on.... Now you academics want me to prove there were
>200 ... what fun is this...
>10b24bc9.jpg
>
>
>go to the Sojourners site......for more information....Ask Jim Wallace....
>let him authenticate his information....Get me off the hook..... Blessings
>to all
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>J<mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>J>. Douglas Archer
>To: <mailto:cob-@topica.com>cob-@topica.com<mailto:cob-@topica.com>cob-@topica.com>
>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [cobnv] written and signed by over 200 U.S. theologians
>
>Dave,
>
>Could you give us a cite which will identify who the "over 200 U. S.
>theologians" are? Being an academic, I'm always interested in knowing who
>said what when. Thank very much for posting the statement.
>
>Doug
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
><mailto:arch-@nd.edu>arch-@nd.edu<mailto:arch-@nd.edu>arch-@nd.edu>
>Mt. Pleasant COB
>Northern Indiana District
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>At 03:36 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:
>
> >How Long Oh Lord?
> >
> >Confessing Christ in a World of Violence
> >
> >Our world is wracked with violence and war. But Jesus said: "Blessed are
> >the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God" (Matt.
> >5:9). Innocent people, at home and abroad, are increasingly threatened by
> >terrorist attacks. But Jesus said: "Love your enemies, pray for those who
> >persecute you" (Matt. 5:44). These words, which have never been easy, seem
> >all the more difficult today.
> >
> >Nevertheless, a time comes when silence is betrayal. How many churches
> >have heard sermons on these texts since the terrorist atrocities of
> >September 11? Where is the serious debate about what it means to confess
> >Christ in a world of violence? Does Christian "realism" mean resigning
> >ourselves to an endless future of "pre-emptive wars"? Does it mean turning
> >a blind eye to torture and massive civilian casualties? Does it mean
> >acting out of fear and resentment rather than intelligence and restraint?
> >
> >Faithfully confessing Christ is the church's task, and never more so than
> >when its confession is co-opted by militarism and nationalism.
> >
> >- A "theology of war," emanating from the highest circles of American
> >government, is seeping into our churches as well.
> >
> >- The language of "righteous empire" is employed with growing frequency.
> >
> >- The roles of God, church, and nation are confused by talk of an American
> >"mission" and "divine appointment" to "rid the world of evil."
> >
> >The security issues before our nation allow no easy solutions. No one has
> >a monopoly on the truth. But a policy that rejects the wisdom of
> >international consultation should not be baptized by religiosity. The
> >danger today is political idolatry exacerbated by the politics of fear.
> >
> >In this time of crisis, we need a new confession of Christ.
> >
> >1. Jesus Christ, as attested in Holy Scripture, knows no national
> >boundaries. Those who confess his name are found throughout the earth. Our
> >allegiance to Christ takes priority over national identity. Whenever
> >Christianity compromises with empire, the gospel of Christ is discredited.
> >
> >We reject the false teaching that any nation-state can ever be described
> >with the words, "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not
> >overcome it." These words, used in scripture, apply only to Christ. No
> >political or religious leader has the right to twist them in the service
> >of war.
> >
> >2. Christ commits Christians to a strong presumption against war. The
> >wanton destructiveness of modern warfare strengthens this obligation.
> >Standing in the shadow of the Cross, Christians have a responsibility to
> >count the cost, speak out for the victims, and explore every alternative
> >before a nation goes to war. We are committed to international cooperation
> >rather than unilateral policies.
> >
> >We reject the false teaching that a war on terrorism takes precedence over
> >ethical and legal norms. Some things ought never be done - torture, the
> >deliberate bombing of civilians, the use of indiscriminate weapons of mass
> >destruction - regardless of the consequences.
> >
> >3. Christ commands us to see not only the splinter in our adversary's eye,
> >but also the beam in our own. The distinction between good and evil does
> >not run between one nation and another, or one group and another. It runs
> >straight through every human heart.
> >
> >We reject the false teaching that America is a "Christian nation,"
> >representing only virtue, while its adversaries are nothing but vicious.
> >We reject the belief that America has nothing to repent of, even as we
> >reject that it represents most of the world's evil. All have sinned and
> >fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).
> >
> >4. Christ shows us that enemy-love is the heart of the gospel. While we
> >were yet enemies, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8, 10). We are to show love
> >to our enemies even as we believe God in Christ has shown love to us and
> >the whole world. Enemy-love does not mean capitulating to hostile agendas
> >or domination. It does mean refusing to demonize any human being created
> >in God's image.
> >
> >We reject the false teaching that any human being can be defined as
> >outside the law's protection. We reject the demonization of perceived
> >enemies, which only paves the way to abuse; and we reject the mistreatment
> >of prisoners, regardless of supposed benefits to their captors.
> >
> >5. Christ teaches us that humility is the virtue befitting forgiven
> >sinners. It tempers all political disagreements, and it allows that our
> >own political perceptions, in a complex world, may be wrong.
> >
> >We reject the false teaching that those who are not for the United States
> >politically are against it or that those who fundamentally question
> >American policies must be with the "evil-doers." Such crude distinctions,
> >especially when used by Christians, are expressions of the Manichaean
> >heresy, in which the world is divided into forces of absolute good and
> >absolute evil.
> >
> >The Lord Jesus Christ is either authoritative for Christians, or he is
> >not. His Lordship cannot be set aside by any earthly power. His words may
> >not be distorted for propagandistic purposes. No nation-state may usurp
> >the place of God.
> >
> >We believe that acknowledging these truths is indispensable for followers
> >of Christ. We urge them to remember these principles in making their
> >decisions as citizens. Peacemaking is central to our vocation in a
> >troubled world where Christ is Lord.
> >
> >********************************
> >Brethren Nonviolence,
> >Another Way of Living
> ><<http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://ww<http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://ww>
> w.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/
> >********************************
>
>********************************
>Brethren Nonviolence,
>Another Way of Living ******************************** Brethren
>Nonviolence, Another Way of Living
><http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/<http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>
>********************************
>

********************************
Brethren Nonviolence,
Another Way of Living http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/<http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>
********************************

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<DIV>
<DIV>There is frost on the potatoes in Idaho Tonight boys and girls.....<IMG
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">From: <A title=mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu
href="mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu">J. Douglas Archer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=mailto:cob-@topica.com
href="mailto:cob-@topica.com">cob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:55
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: [cobnv] written and signed
by over 200 U.S. theologians</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Dave, Whoops! I really didn't mean to imply
that you needed to supply proof. But if I ever want to quote it (I
might, it's a great statement), it would be nice to indicate the
source. Besides, I like to go back to sources. Pointing me to
Sojourners is just fine. So, you're off the hook.
: ) BTW, I still have my potato pin. Thanks very
much! Doug At 01:08 AM 10/22/2004, you wrote: >I was
quoting from Sojo Magazine by Jim Wallace.....I just loved what it
 >said so I passed it on.... Now you academics want me to prove there
were >200 ... what fun is
this... >10b24bc9.jpg > > >go to the Sojourners
site......for more information....Ask Jim Wallace.... >let him
authenticate his information....Get me off the hook..... Blessings >to
all >----- Original Message ----- >From: <<A
title="mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>J"
href="mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>J">mailto:J.D.Ar-@nd.edu>J</A>
Douglas Archer >To: <<A
title="mailto:cob-@topica.com>cob-@topica.com"
href="mailto:cob-@topica.com>cob-@topica.com">mailto:cob-@topica.com>cob-@topica.com</A> >Sent:
Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:24 PM >Subject: Re: [cobnv] written and
signed by over 200 U.S. theologians > >Dave, > >Could
you give us a cite which will identify who the "over 200 U.
S. >theologians" are? Being an academic, I'm always interested in
knowing who >said what when. Thank very much for posting the
statement. > >Doug > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++ ><<A
title="mailto:arch-@nd.edu>arch-@nd.edu"
href="mailto:arch-@nd.edu>arch-@nd.edu">mailto:arch-@nd.edu>arch-@nd.edu</A> >Mt.
Pleasant COB >Northern Indiana
District >+++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >At 03:36 PM
10/20/2004, you wrote: > > >How Long Oh Lord? >
> > >Confessing Christ in a World of Violence > > >
>Our world is wracked with violence and war. But Jesus said: "Blessed
are > >the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God"
(Matt. > >5:9). Innocent people, at home and abroad, are increasingly
threatened by > >terrorist attacks. But Jesus said: "Love your
enemies, pray for those who > >persecute you" (Matt. 5:44). These
words, which have never been easy, seem > >all the more difficult
today. > > > >Nevertheless, a time comes when silence is
betrayal. How many churches > >have heard sermons on these texts
since the terrorist atrocities of > >September 11? Where is the
serious debate about what it means to confess > >Christ in a world of
violence? Does Christian "realism" mean resigning > >ourselves to an
endless future of "pre-emptive wars"? Does it mean turning > >a blind
eye to torture and massive civilian casualties? Does it mean >
>acting out of fear and resentment rather than intelligence and
restraint? > > > >Faithfully confessing Christ is the
church's task, and never more so than > >when its confession is
co-opted by militarism and nationalism. > > > >- A "theology
of war," emanating from the highest circles of American >
>government, is seeping into our churches as well. > > >
>- The language of "righteous empire" is employed with growing
frequency. > > > >- The roles of God, church, and nation are
confused by talk of an American > >"mission" and "divine appointment"
to "rid the world of evil." > > > >The security issues
before our nation allow no easy solutions. No one has > >a monopoly
on the truth. But a policy that rejects the wisdom of >
>international consultation should not be baptized by religiosity.
The > >danger today is political idolatry exacerbated by the politics
of fear. > > > >In this time of crisis, we need a new
confession of Christ. > > > >1. Jesus Christ, as attested in
Holy Scripture, knows no national > >boundaries. Those who confess
his name are found throughout the earth. Our > >allegiance to Christ
takes priority over national identity. Whenever > >Christianity
compromises with empire, the gospel of Christ is discredited. >
> > >We reject the false teaching that any nation-state can ever
be described > >with the words, "the light shines in the darkness and
the darkness has not > >overcome it." These words, used in scripture,
apply only to Christ. No > >political or religious leader has the
right to twist them in the service > >of war. > > >
>2. Christ commits Christians to a strong presumption against war.
The > >wanton destructiveness of modern warfare strengthens this
obligation. > >Standing in the shadow of the Cross, Christians have a
responsibility to > >count the cost, speak out for the victims, and
explore every alternative > >before a nation goes to war. We are
committed to international cooperation > >rather than unilateral
policies. > > > >We reject the false teaching that a war on
terrorism takes precedence over > >ethical and legal norms. Some
things ought never be done - torture, the > >deliberate bombing of
civilians, the use of indiscriminate weapons of mass > >destruction -
regardless of the consequences. > > > >3. Christ commands us
to see not only the splinter in our adversary's eye, > >but also the
beam in our own. The distinction between good and evil does > >not
run between one nation and another, or one group and another. It runs >
>straight through every human heart. > > > >We reject the
false teaching that America is a "Christian nation," > >representing
only virtue, while its adversaries are nothing but vicious. > >We
reject the belief that America has nothing to repent of, even as we >
>reject that it represents most of the world's evil. All have sinned
and > >fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). >
> > >4. Christ shows us that enemy-love is the heart of the
gospel. While we > >were yet enemies, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8,
10). We are to show love > >to our enemies even as we believe God in
Christ has shown love to us and > >the whole world. Enemy-love does
not mean capitulating to hostile agendas > >or domination. It does
mean refusing to demonize any human being created > >in God's
image. > > > >We reject the false teaching that any human
being can be defined as > >outside the law's protection. We reject
the demonization of perceived > >enemies, which only paves the way to
abuse; and we reject the mistreatment > >of prisoners, regardless of
supposed benefits to their captors. > > > >5. Christ teaches
us that humility is the virtue befitting forgiven > >sinners. It
tempers all political disagreements, and it allows that our > >own
political perceptions, in a complex world, may be wrong. > > >
>We reject the false teaching that those who are not for the United
States > >politically are against it or that those who fundamentally
question > >American policies must be with the "evil-doers." Such
crude distinctions, > >especially when used by Christians, are
expressions of the Manichaean > >heresy, in which the world is
divided into forces of absolute good and > >absolute evil. >
> > >The Lord Jesus Christ is either authoritative for Christians,
or he is > >not. His Lordship cannot be set aside by any earthly
power. His words may > >not be distorted for propagandistic purposes.
No nation-state may usurp > >the place of God. > > >
>We believe that acknowledging these truths is indispensable for
followers > >of Christ. We urge them to remember these principles in
making their > >decisions as citizens. Peacemaking is central to our
vocation in a > >troubled world where Christ is Lord. >
> > >******************************** > >Brethren
Nonviolence, > >Another Way of Living > ><<<A
title="http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://ww"
href="http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://ww">http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://ww</A>
 > w.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/ >
>******************************** > >******************************** >Brethren
Nonviolence, >Another Way of Living ********************************
Brethren >Nonviolence, Another Way of Living ><<A
title="http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/"
href="http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/">http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/>http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/</A>
 >******************************** > ******************************** Brethren
Nonviolence, Another Way of Living <A title=http://www.freewebz.com/cobnv/

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