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RE: Mary
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Lance McLain
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May 22, 2001 09:01 PDT
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Thanks Nick for your work on this! I really appreciate it.
For the Record, I don't advocate celibacy within marriage as it seems some
of you might mistakenly take from my posts....but I do believe in certain
exceptions to that rule. If Mary were married in the traditional sense
(which I don't concede) then that would be one of those exceptions.
I do note that there are some instances in the history of the Saints, where
married Saints have remained celibate for certain reasons within marriage
and this has been acknowledge, even approved by the Church. But as those
are more the exception and not the rule, I don't think it much profitable to
dwell on those cases here.
regards,
-Lance
(As an aside, didn't C.S. Lewis have a platonic marriage for a time?)
| | -----Original Message-----
From: nicholas a. evans [mailto:ni-@media.umbc.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:13 AM
To: dadl-@topica.com
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Mary
On Mon, 14 May 2001 [02:02PM], Lance McLain spake thusly:
...<clip>...
| | | | While I understand the sentiment, and do not begrudge anyone a
right to honor those who have gone before us in the Faith, this is
the kind of worship (and, yes, it /is/ worship) that, for me, is
reserved for God alone.
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Well, my understanding is that there are 2 kinds of praise
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traditionally
| | referred to, and perhaps Nick can help me out with the Greek here.
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since you invoked my name... i'll do what i can. :^) but, i think
you'd be backed up just as well by a good english dictionary that is
thick enough to include theological terms in it. :^) but, yes, i
know what you mean with respect to mutliple degrees of "praise".
| | The first is 'proskynesis' which is traditionally accepted as
appropriate for honoring the saints (or anyone for that matter).
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proskunêsis [from prosku^neô] proskunêsis, eôs, adoration, obeisance,
a salam, Arist., Plut.
proskuneô fut. -êsô aor1 -ekunêsa poet. -eku^sa imperat. proskuson
inf. -kusai part. -kusas perf. -kekunêka
* 1. Plut.:-- to make obeisance to the gods, fall down and
worship, to worship, adore, c. acc., Hdt., Aesch.,
etc.:--proverb., hoi proskunountes tên Adrasteian sophoi, of
deprecating the wrath of Nemesis, Aesch.; so, ton phthonon de
proskuson Soph.:--also of sacred places, to do reverence to,
hedê theôn id=Soph.; tên gên Ar.
* 2. of the Oriental fashion of making the salam or prostrating
oneself before kings and superiors, absol., Hdt.; c. acc., pr.
ton Dareion hôs basilea to make obeisance to him as king,
id=Hdt.; pantes se proskunoumen Soph., etc.:--later, c. dat.,
NTest.
compound of the preposition pros and kuneô - to kiss
| | The second is 'latria' which is reserved for God alone.
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not initially... not unless a god was specically mentioned.
latrios latrios, ê, on of a servant or service, Pind.; paradidonai
tina latrion to give him into slavery, id=Pind. [from latris]
latreia latreia, hê, [latreuô]
* 1. the state of a hired workman, service, servitude, Trag.
* 2. l. tou theou, theôn service to the gods, divine worship,
Plat.; absol., NTest.
latris latris, ios a workman for hire, hired servant, and in fem. a
handmaid, Theogn., Soph. [from latron]
latreuô latreuô, phut. -sô [latris]
* 1. to work for hire or pay, to be in servitude, serve, Xen.
* 2. l. tini to be bound or enslaved to, Soph., Eur., etc.; c.
acc. pers. to serve, Eur.:--metaph., latr. petrai, of
Prometheus, Aesch.; mochthois latr. Soph.; l. nomois to
obey, Xen.
* 3. to serve the gods, l. Phoibôi Eur.: c. acc. cogn., ponon l.
to render them due service, id=Eur.
latris latris, ios a workman for hire, hired servant, and in fem. a
handmaid, Theogn., Soph. [from latron]
(and a whole slew of other words coming from the root "latr", "pay or
hire")
for what it's worth, i think that these more specific definitions
of which you speak probably came into existence a good deal after the
writing of the new testament... the original definition of
proskunêsis seems a bit stronger than its eventual definition, and the
original definition of latria is no where near as specific as its
eventual definition.
some (currently used in english) definitions i had heard of:
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Latria \La*tri"a\ (?), n. [L., fr. Gr. &?;, fr. &?; to serve,
fr. &?; servant.]
The highest kind of worship, or that paid to God; --
distinguished by the Roman Catholics from dulia, or the
inferior worship paid to saints.
Dulia \Du*li"a\ (?), n. [LL., fr. Gr. &?; servitude, fr. &?;
slave.] (R. C. Ch.)
An inferior kind of veneration or worship, given to the
angels and saints as the servants of God.
Hyperdulia \Hy`per*du*li"a\ (?), n. [Pref. hyper- + dulia: cf.
F. hyperdulie.] (R. C. Ch.)
Veneration or worship given to the Virgin Mary as the most
exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia.
--Addis & Arnold.
| | I might write a post praising the wonders of Terry Taylor's
songwriting (proskynesis) but I would never suggest he was the
Creator or Author of our Salvation (latria).
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i think that most of us are clear on that distinction. but many of
us would claim that the praises towards things that are not God can
become excessive... even to the point of idolatry. and this is what
sometimes happens in the case of the veneration of mary.
| | I think the skin crawly thing is mainly misunderstanding of the word
'praise'.
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maybe for some. for me, it is that a few of my relatives (very
devout catholics) venerate mary to the point of idolatry. of course,
they also firmly believe that mary was immaculate... the orthodox
don't teach that, do they?
| | We praise people all the time...children for accomplishing a task,
Artists for their works, Speakers for their charism, benefactors for
their generosity, but it doesn't mean we are saying they are God or
worthy of praise due God alone.
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...<clip>...
certainly we do. and mary is worthy of that sort of praise, sure.
and she certainly has a very *unique* place in human and church
history.
but... i don't believe that it is correct to interpret "blessed are
you among women" to mean "exalted are you above all other women (or
men)".
--
nick evans | nick at media dot umbc dot edu | `h xaris tou
kuriou ihsou
seswsmenos | http://media.umbc.edu/~nick | xristou meta pantwn.
%
what makes the Universe so hard to comprehend is that
there's nothing to compare it with.
%
"shrouded in the sweetest grass / i've ever known
this my earthly bed / my beloved home
but the voice that calls me / to the far away
i can only trust every word you say"
-- Iona, "Edge of the World"
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