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Re: Siamese genetics question!
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lokix-@aim.com
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Feb 20, 2008 23:48 PST
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Before I go into the genetics, did the 'grey agouti' look like this?
Grey agoutis can be confused with CP Agoutis, which look like this-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/Loki4566/pics004.jpg
The high death rate is NOT from the Sp gene, and the bib is common in self colors, and NOT the Sp gene. Chances are, you were unknowingly breeding unhealthy stock.
-----Original Message-----
From: Squirrel <squir-@hotmail.co.uk>
To: gerb-@topica.com
Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 7:37 am
Subject: [GML] Siamese genetics question!
Hello guys, haven't been on here for absolutely ages!
You may remember from before that I had some trouble with a mated pair
of blacks dying suddenly and leaving a litter of 5 1/2 week old pups.
One of the pups died suddenly when he hit a year old, although the
others lived full lives. The female pup is still going. Regardless, I
took the advice of someone on here, and stopped breeding then and there.
I split the boys into pairs and re-homed them, and I managed to pair the
female with a similar aged girl from another litter. Bit by bit, my
breeding stock was all retired and moved to strictly non-breeding homes
with people I know. All my pets stayed with me until the last two were
put down with diabetes last year.
Now, with brand new stock , new cages and my own house (I got married so
even have a special gerbil room and a husband who likes them, hooray!) I
am starting over.
My question is a little complicated, so I hope I explain it properly.
When I was ready to start breeding gerbils again, I spotted a very
pretty grey-agouti female in a pet shop, 8 weeks old. My friend had a
grey-agouti male that was 7 weeks old at the time, so I got the female
and waited a week for the male. In that time, I noticed the female's
ears, nose and tail were noticably darker and it became apparently that
she was in fact, a siamese. Possibly because of the agegap, she rejected
the grey and even managed to break his tail with a bite. Poor thing. The
owner of the same petshop had a year-old black male he was looking to
re-home, after he had stopped breeding his own gerbils. (I did check the
parentage of the black and that the two weren't related). Anyway, I
paired the older male with the siamese and she accepted him - I'm
guessing because he was a lot older and had already bred.
As it turned out, this pairing only brought about small litters, their
first litter had 6 babies, 3 died before they were 3 days old. The
others were two male spotted siamese, and a male dove. The second litter
only ever seemed to have one black female. All were healthy and
survived. I 'retired' the siamese female to pet status, I would like to
show her, and paired the black male with his dove son. The two siamese
boys have gone to a friend's daughter. I then bred the black female with
the original grey agouti, and they had their first litter two weeks ago.
Two siamese, and a golden agouti, I'm not convinced of the sexes quite
yet! But I think the smaller of the siamese is a girl.
I have attempted to work out the genetics of my stock, but the C-locus
genes,the spotting gene and the pp in the dove are confusing me. Below
are my workings out so far.
Shem aa Cc D- E- G- P- Black male
Ruby aa cchm ch D- E- G- P- Sp+ Siamese spotted female
1st litt. aa cchm ch D- E- G- P- Sp+ Siamese spotted male
1st litt. aa cchm ch D- E- G- P- Sp+ Siamese spotted male
Ham 1st Litt. aa Cch E- G- pp Dove male
Abraham Aa C- D- E- gg P- Grey agouti male
Eliza 2nd litt. aa Cc D- E- G- P- Black female
Baby aa cchm ch D- E- G- P- Sp+ Siamese spotted ?
Baby aa cchm ch D- E- G- P- Sp+ Siamese spotted ?
Baby Aa Cc D- E- G- P- Golden agouti ?
I have presumed the 'a' allele in the grey agouti due to the 'aa' status
of the siamese young. Otherwise they would have all inherited an A from
him and all been agoutis? My understanding is that these are essentially
blacks with the cchm/ch acting on the body. I was doing punnet squares
to work out the inheritance of the 'c' loci and I'm confused. It's
obvious that Eliza has inherited the cchm or ch from her mother, but
surely she can only pas on either cchm or ch, not both? How then are her
young siamese and not himalayan? They do have black ears forming
already, not just the tail. How is the siamese colouring inherited? Or
could I feasably breed a burmese if just the ch is passed on? Also, I
presume the golden agouti is now carrying something like its mother was?
My other round of questioning is about the grey agouti. I know Aa is
agouti markings, and aa is one colour all over. The siamese are listed
as aa, but Ruby and Abraham look very very similar. she just has the
black points, and his ticking seems a little darker. Is that irrelevant?
Are my siamese still siamese and not siamese grey agoutis?
In relation to all of that, I know my dove male has pp cause his eyes
are ruby, and obviously, he is dove. Does that mean both his parents are
Pp, or can it just occur without inheritance?
Same thing with the spotting. As ruby is spotted, I wondered if it's
possible to just carry the gene and not be spotted? It might explain the
high death rate/small litters of ruby, as she is spotted. Although Shem
is not a spotted black, he does have the small line of white under his
chin often found in blacks, for genetic purposes, do I consider him as
carrying Sp?
I'll stop there, before I really confuse myself. I did genetics in my
degree so I get most of it, just the specifics of siamese gerbil
inheritance!
Also, are there any breeders near Bristol, England I can buy some excess
stock from? Blacks or siamese preffered. Although my colours are nice,
petshops aren't the best place to find good conformation. I'm trying to
find a black version of my original chunky lilac male, Noah, he was
gorgeous. :-)
Thankyou, any help appreciated.
Sarah
Sarah-squirrel
"Someone once told me you've got to learn to grow up; if wisdom comes
with age - then I'm a fool." -Transition, Bristol based band, UK
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