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RE: What Price Israel	Chip Kempston
	Aug 07, 2007 10:24 PDT

--- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:

Chip Kempston wrote:

--- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:

Chip Kempston wrote:

--- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:

Chip Kempston wrote:

--- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:

>
Chip Kempston wrote:
>
>
> --- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:
>
> >
> > Chip Kempston wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- elya-@prodigy.net.mx wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Jerry McDonald wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- elya-@prodigy.net.mx

wrote:

>> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chip Kempston wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- Ian Dorion
<elya-@prodigy.net.mx>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > gcc wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > IAN
> > > > > > > > > > The wars in Iraq and

Afghanistan

>are
> > > > being
> > > > > > > > fought because we have

been

>> > > > > > > > > > supporting Israel

for

over

>years
> > now.
> > > > > > > > Ian Dorion
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > GCC
> > > > > > > > > The wars in Irag and

Afghanistan

>are
> > not
> > > > being
> > > > > > > > fought for the USA's
> > > > > > > > > altrusitic feelings

towards

>Israel,
> > but
> > > > rather
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > interests of the
> > > > > > > > > administration now in

power.

>Trust
> > me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IAN
> > > > > > > > Were it not for our

undying

>financial
> > and
> > > > > > military
> > > > > > > > support for Israel
> > > > > > > > none of the kidnappings,

attacks

>our
> > > > > > embassies,
> > > > > > > > military, and lastly
> > > > > > > > the WTC on 9-11 would

not

have

been

>> > > > attacked.
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > did not go to war with
> > > > > > > > Iraq because they had

anything

to do

>> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > WTC or
> > > > > > > > because they had
> > > > > > > > WMD, or ties to al

Qaida, or

were a

>> > threat
> > > > to
> > > > > > the US
> > > > > > > > or Israel. We did
> > > > > > > > not even go to war

because

was a

>> > tyrant
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > the Iraqi people
> > > > > > > > needed a tyrant to keep

peace in

the

>> > > > country.
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > went to war with Iraq
> > > > > > > > becuase he was giving

the

families

>of
> > > > suicide
> > > > > > > > bombers $25,000 to

rebuild

>> > > > > > > > the homes Israel was
> > > > > > > > bukdozing and our reward

was

>big
> > > > business
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > oil. Most of this
> > > > > > > > shit took place long

before

GWB

>became
> > > > > > president.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CHIP:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, before the modern

state of

Israel

>was
> > > > created,
> > > > > > > Muslims were just a bunch

>peace-loving
> > > > > > goat-herders
> > > > > > > who wanted to be left

alone.

that

>what
> > > > you're
> > > > > > saying?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > IAN
> > > > > > What I am saying or trying

get

across

>is
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > wars in Afghanistan
> > > > > > and the entire War on Terror

>reality a
> > war
> > > > for
> > > > > > Israel and Israel
> > > > > > does not belong there as a

nation.

>Israel
> > is
> > > > > > costing us billions, going
> > > > > > on to trillions of dollars

and

also

>> > costing
> > > > us
> > > > > > lives, arms. legs,
> > > > > > eyes, brains, genitals, and

our

>freedoms.
> > There
> > > > > > have been more UN
> > > > > > Resolutions against Israel

than

any

>other
> > nation
> > > > and
> > > > > > the US have vetoed
> > > > > > every one of them. To top

all

off,

>> > Israel is
> > > > the
> > > > > > only nation in the
> > > > > > Middle East to spy on us.

And

please

>don't
> > > > forget
> > > > > > that they attacked th
> > > > > > USS
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Liberty._________________________________________________________________________________

>>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > McDonald
> > > > > Could someone please tell me

how I

got

>this
> > > > list
> > > > > and how this thread has

anything

to do

>with my
> > > > debate
> > > > > with Till?
> > > > > jdm
> > > > >
> > > > IAN
> > > >
> > > > Somehow this got out of control

and

guess

>that
> > > > 'God' wanted to punish
> > > > McDonald a little bit.
> > > >
> > > > If one wants to look at the War

for

Israel,

>one
> > > > should start at the
> > > > beginning and ask why the Jews

were

kicked

>out
> > of
> > > > Palestine in the first
> > > > place and it is my understanding

that

they

>were
> > > > kicked out because like
> > > > me, they were a difficult people

rule.

>> > > >
> > > > The Jews went to Europe and

Western

Asia

and

>> > > > apparently they were held
> > > > in contempt and discriminated

against

>because
> > they
> > > > were money lenders
> > > > ans merchants and perhaps

because

they

>dressed
> > funny
> > > > and stayed
> > > > together. At any rate, the

Christians

felt

>they
> > did
> > > > not contribute
> > > > anything to society because they

did

not

>build
> > > > anything.
> > > >
> > > > The modern Zionist movement

began in

the

>late
> > 19th
> > > > century about 1885 by
> > > > a Jew named Herzl.
> > > >
> > > > I will halt now to see if anyone

disagrees

>with
> > me
> > > > up to this point and
> > > > will continue in a few days or

defend

what I

>> > have
> > > > written so far.
> > > >
> > > > Ian Dorion
> > > >
> > >
> > > CHIP:
> > >
> > > No, I don't accept your rash

generalizations,

>for
> > > instance, regarding Jews,

"apparently

they

>were
> > held
> > > in contempt and discriminated

against

>because..."
> > The
> > > fact that you use words and

phrases

>> > "apparently"
> > > and "it is my understanding" to

build

>argument
> > says
> > > a lot about your position.
> > >
> > > Post facts, back them up with

references,

and

>> > don't
> > > forget to post details about the

peace-loving

>> > Muslims
> > > and their relevance.
> > >
> > > The only fact you actually give in

this

post

>is:
> > >
> > > "The modern Zionist movement began

the

late

>> > 19th
> > > century about 1885 by a Jew named

Herzl."

>> > >
> > > I'm on board with that, though I

wonder if

>there
> > is a
> > > motive behind this simplistic view

maybe

>not.
> > Let's
> > > see where you go with this.
> > >
> > IAN
> > I had a hell of a time finding it

the

first

time

>and
> > now I can't locate
> > it but I will keep looking. Since

you

don't

>seem to
> > agree perhaps you
> > can give me the reasons they were

discriminated

>> > against and I am talking
> > about the late 19th century.
> >
> > I cannot always post facts. When

that

not

>> > possible, I will post
> > circumstantial evidence.
> > Ian Dorion
>
> CHIP:
>
> If you're going to build your argument

such

>> statements, you're going to have to

back

them

up,

>> otherwise, don't bother. I'm not

going to

accept,

>> "Oh, I read it once a few years back,"

and

I'm

not

>> going to build your case or provide

your

proof

for

>> you.
>
> In general, it seems that you have a

completely

>> backward view of history in regard to
Jews/Christians
> and Muslims. You come across as being

the

>opinion
> that Muslims are a bunch of

peace-loving

victims

>who
> have been exploited throughout

history,

when

>fact,
> anything they ever got was brought on

their

own

>> aggression.
>
> If any group has been a constant

victim

throughout

>> history, it's the Jews. They've been

persecuted

>by
> the Romans, the Christians, pretty

much

all of

>Europe
> down to the 20th century, and, of

course,

Muslims.

>If
> the Muslims lost some land and some

lives

because

>Jews
> moved back to Palestine, well, they

had it

coming.

>>
IAN
I don't expect you to accept what I said

word.

>I'll keep looking
but what would you say is the reason the

Jews

have

>been discriminated
against all these years since you won'r

what

>I found?

I hardly think the Mulims or any other

group

>human beongs are peace
loving people. In my opinion, humans

are

the

worst

>animal on the planet
whether they be jew, christian, muslim

atheist.

>Why would you say,
the Muslims had it coming to them

(regarding

the

>loss of land)? And why
did the Muslims 'have it coming'?

Yes, the Jews have been persecuted.

WHY?

Remember,

>it was the Jews who
(allegedly) came into Canaan and killed

all

the

>people (or so their holy
book says).

It all comes back to, How much is Israel

worth

>dollars, lives, arms,
legs, eyes, brains, genitals and

freedoms?

>Ian Dorion

CHIP:

The same reason most groups are

discriminated

against

- they're easy targets, and easy for any

leader or

government to blame them for all the

problems

the

world. The good old bugbear. But for the

Muslims,

it's what's commanded in their holy book.

That's

excuse enough for them.

I do tend to agree with you that humans in

general

are

pretty nasty.

IAN
Are you going to sit there and tell me that

not in the Jewish Holy
Book to kill the Arabs (also known as

Canaanites

and

Palestinians)?
Ian Dorion

CHIP:

I think you'd be hard pressed to make a

connection

between modern "Palestinians" (No such ethnic

group

anyway) and Canaanites. Besides, that was a

one

time

deal, not that it makes it any more ethical.

IAN
I think you are being argumentative Chip. The
Palestinians have been
there for centuries unless you can prove

otherwise.

You will have a
much more difficult time proving all 5.2 million
Israeli Jews (25% of
which live outside of Israel) are descendants of

the

Jews who were
dispersed from Palestine. Of course, you don't

have

to prove anything,
do you?
Ian Dorion

CHIP:

Yup, I agree. I couldn't prove that either, or

maybe

I should say, I don't care enough to take the time

prove it, and it's not important for my position.
You're the one claiming that Israel is the source

all Muslim anger toward the world.

IAN
I never said 'toward the world', I said toward the
US. Now please tell
me how many kidnappings, hijackings, bombings and
other 'terrorist'
activities have taken place before the UN
partitioned Israel and before
the US supported Israel. As far as the Israeli Jews
are concerned, you
can't prove it because the Jews themselves can't
prove it.
Ian Dorion

CHIP:

Uh, it's been going on since Muhammad had a visitation
by an angel in a cave.

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