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RE: Digest for phi-@topica.com, issue 122
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Stephen & Karen Moore
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Mar 13, 2003 02:50 PST
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Rod,
Thanks for posting the Phil Jensen thing, I very much agree which what he
is trying to say. The arguments of his opponents remind me a little of the
arguments being used in a debate on the ABC tonight regarding a potential
conflict in Iraq. So many people used ill thought out arguments charged with
emotion rather than rationalism. I won't state my view on the situation but
I felt that what was right or wrong in the situation was a sideline hijacked
by anti Americanism and anti Howardism. (Although I did appreciate what the
well thought out people had to say.)
Steve
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From: phi-@topica.com [mailto:phi-@topica.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 March 2003 11:12 PM
To: phi-@topica.com
Subject: Digest for phi-@topica.com, issue 122
-- Topica Digest --
RE: From the SMH
By rod-@haywood.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 07:57:12 +1100
From: "Rodney Haywood" <rod-@haywood.org>
Subject: RE: From the SMH
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A follow-up from Bruce's post.
Rodos
--
PM - Dean attacks theistic relativism
[This is the print version of story
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s803258.htm]
PM - Monday, 10 March , 2003 18:45:00
Reporter: Jo Mazzocchi
JOHN HIGHFIELD: The new Dean of Sydney's Anglican Cathedral, St.
Andrews, made a striking debut this weekend.
In his inaugural sermon at the cathedral, Dean Phillip Jensen - brother
to the Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Dr. Peter Jensen - attacked what
he sees as excessive relativism in the media treatment of Hinduism,
Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
They can't all be right, he argued.
His comments have not gone down well with some of Australian's other
religious leaders, as Jo Mazzocchi reports.
JO MAZZOCCHI: In what can only be described as a provocative start,
Phillip Jensen has courted controversy by outlining why he believes some
of the world's religions - specifically Hinduism, Judaism and Islam -
are mutually incompatible.
His reflections come from a conversation with a Hindu student, who
recently told him that while Jesus Christ is one of history's great
spiritual leaders, rather than forsake his Hindu Gods, the youth simply
wanted to add Jesus to his list.
But the new Dean says that's unacceptable. Phillip Jensen argues while
there are many wonderful Hindus, Muslims, Jews and atheists in Sydney,
they cannot all be right. Some or all of them are wrong, and if wrong,
he says, "they are the monstrous lies and deceits of Satan, devised to
destroy the life of the believers."
So just who, according to Phillip Jensen, is right and who is wrong?
PHILLIP JENSEN: The ones that are right are the ones who teach the
truth, and the ones who are wrong are the ones who deny the truth. Jesus
Christ either lived, or he didn't live. The communists in the 1940s said
that Jesus didn't live. He either did, or he didn't.
There is a fact out there, the man either did or he didn't live. Now
likewise, he either did or he didn't die. Now, the Koran - in 4157 -
says that Jesus did not die, and that the Jews and the Christians were
deceived, or confused in saying that he did, that they are wrong, he did
not die.
The Bible says that he did die. Now, I was not saying which of these was
right, or which was wrong, but I was saying that you can't get rid of
the category of right or wrong in this area, because they both can't be
right.
JO MAZZOCCHI: Can you understand, though, how your comments could be
interpreted as being quite insulting to other religions?
PHILLIP JENSEN: No, because I'm saying that Christians could be wrong.
It may be that Jesus did not die, and is Islam is right.
JO MAZZOCCHI: But you didn't name Christians in your speech.
PHILLIP JENSEN: I did, and I did say we could be wrong. You weren't
there, obviously.
JO MAZZOCCHI: But other spiritual leaders say they're deeply offended by
Phillip Jensen's remarks. Rabbi Raymond Apple is a senior spokesman from
Sydney's Jewish community.
RAYMOND APPLE: The problem is that the word 'truth' can be understood on
various levels and in various ways, and we believe that the truth is
that human beings are entitled to be themselves with their own views,
and no-one has any right in today's pluralistic democratic society to
wield a big stick and to say, as they used to do in the bad old days of
the wars of the religions, you have to accept what I say, or else your
life will be in danger.
JO MAZZOCCHI: Keysar Trad, a spokesman for Sydney's Lebanese Muslim
community, says he's particularly detoured by the timing of this
discussion on the eve of a controversial war.
KEYSAR TRAD: These comments will impact on some people.
JO MAZZOCCHI: How, how particularly will it impact on people within the
Muslim community?
KEYSAR TRAD: So far, people on both sides are putting this war into
perspective. It is not a war of religion, it is not a war of
Christianity versus Islam, it's a war for different motives. We might
differ on the motives, and might dispute whether the motives are oil or
disarmament, but we don't dispute that this is not a religious war.
Now, when you make these comments it may add weight, or it may get some
credibility to those sections in society that would rather believe that
this is a religious war.
JO MAZZOCCHI: But Phillip Jensen claims he's not intolerant of other
religions at all.
PHILLIP JENSEN: Well the secularists have confused tolerance with
relativism, and that was what I was attacking, and tolerance means that
I beg to differ with people, and continue to accept them as humans with
all the same respects, rights, values and trusts as any other human.
Relativism is the view that there is no right and wrong, we're all in
the muddle together, there is no reality out there, the world is neither
flat nor round, no-one knows anything, it's just the nihilism of
post-modernity. It's the people who won't listen, are the secularists.
They will never listen and they will never let us explain ourselves.
JOHN HIGHFIELD: The Dean of Sydney's Anglican Cathedral, Phillip Jensen,
with Jo Mazzocchi.
C 2003 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Copyright information: http://abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm
Privacy information: http://abc.net.au/privacy.htm
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<DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format --><FONT face=Arial size=2>A
follow-up from Bruce's post.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rodos</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>-- </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>PM - Dean attacks theistic
relativism</FONT></STRONG>
<BR><BR><FONT size=-1>[This is the print version of story <A
href="http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s803258.htm">http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s803258
.htm</A>]</FONT>
<BR><BR></DIV>
<H4 class=infoline>PM - Monday, 10 March , 2003 18:45:00</H4>
<H4 class=infoline>Reporter: Jo Mazzocchi</H4>
<DIV class=storytext>JOHN HIGHFIELD: The new Dean of Sydney's Anglican
Cathedral, St. Andrews, made a striking debut this weekend.<BR><BR>In his
inaugural sermon at the cathedral, Dean Phillip Jensen - brother to the
Anglican
Archbishop of Sydney, Dr. Peter Jensen - attacked what he sees as excessive
relativism in the media treatment of Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and
Christianity.
<BR><BR>They can't all be right, he argued.<BR><BR>His comments have not
gone
down well with some of Australian's other religious leaders, as Jo Mazzocchi
reports.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: In what can only be described as a provocative
start, Phillip Jensen has courted controversy by outlining why he believes
some
of the world's religions - specifically Hinduism, Judaism and Islam - are
mutually incompatible.<BR><BR>His reflections come from a conversation with
a
Hindu student, who recently told him that while Jesus Christ is one of
history's
great spiritual leaders, rather than forsake his Hindu Gods, the youth
simply
wanted to add Jesus to his list.<BR><BR>But the new Dean says that's
unacceptable. Phillip Jensen argues while there are many wonderful Hindus,
Muslims, Jews and atheists in Sydney, they cannot all be right. Some or all
of
them are wrong, and if wrong, he says, "they are the monstrous lies and
deceits
of Satan, devised to destroy the life of the believers."<BR><BR>So just who,
according to Phillip Jensen, is right and who is wrong?<BR><BR>PHILLIP
JENSEN:
The ones that are right are the ones who teach the truth, and the ones who
are
wrong are the ones who deny the truth. Jesus Christ either lived, or he
didn’t
live. The communists in the 1940s said that Jesus didn't live. He either
did, or
he didn't. <BR><BR>There is a fact out there, the man either did or he
didn’t
live. Now likewise, he either did or he didn't die. Now, the Koran –
in 4157 –
says that Jesus did not die, and that the Jews and the Christians were
deceived,
or confused in saying that he did, that they are wrong, he did not die.
<BR><BR>The Bible says that he did die. Now, I was not saying which of these
was
right, or which was wrong, but I was saying that you can't get rid of the
category of right or wrong in this area, because they both can't be
right.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: Can you understand, though, how your comments
could
be interpreted as being quite insulting to other religions?<BR><BR>PHILLIP
JENSEN: No, because I'm saying that Christians could be wrong. It may be
that
Jesus did not die, and is Islam is right.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: But you
didn't
name Christians in your speech.<BR><BR>PHILLIP JENSEN: I did, and I did say
we
could be wrong. You weren't there, obviously.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: But other
spiritual leaders say they're deeply offended by Phillip Jensen's remarks.
Rabbi
Raymond Apple is a senior spokesman from Sydney's Jewish
community.<BR><BR>RAYMOND APPLE: The problem is that the word 'truth' can be
understood on various levels and in various ways, and we believe that the
truth
is that human beings are entitled to be themselves with their own views, and
no-one has any right in today's pluralistic democratic society to wield a
big
stick and to say, as they used to do in the bad old days of the wars of the
religions, you have to accept what I say, or else your life will be in
danger.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: Keysar Trad, a spokesman for Sydney's Lebanese
Muslim community, says he's particularly detoured by the timing of this
discussion on the eve of a controversial war.<BR><BR>KEYSAR TRAD: These
comments
will impact on some people.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: How, how particularly will
it
impact on people within the Muslim community?<BR><BR>KEYSAR TRAD: So far,
people
on both sides are putting this war into perspective. It is not a war of
religion, it is not a war of Christianity versus Islam, it's a war for
different
motives. We might differ on the motives, and might dispute whether the
motives
are oil or disarmament, but we don't dispute that this is not a religious
war.
<BR><BR>Now, when you make these comments it may add weight, or it may get
some
credibility to those sections in society that would rather believe that this
is
a religious war.<BR><BR>JO MAZZOCCHI: But Phillip Jensen claims he's not
intolerant of other religions at all.<BR><BR>PHILLIP JENSEN: Well the
secularists have confused tolerance with relativism, and that was what I was
attacking, and tolerance means that I beg to differ with people, and
continue to
accept them as humans with all the same respects, rights, values and trusts
as
any other human. <BR><BR>Relativism is the view that there is no right and
wrong, we're all in the muddle together, there is no reality out there, the
world is neither flat nor round, no-one knows anything, it's just the
nihilism
of post-modernity. It's the people who won't listen, are the secularists.
They
will never listen and they will never let us explain ourselves.<BR><BR>JOHN
HIGHFIELD: The Dean of Sydney's Anglican Cathedral, Phillip Jensen, with Jo
Mazzocchi.</DIV><BR><BR>
<CENTER>© 2003 Australian Broadcasting Corporation<BR>Copyright
information: <A
href="http://abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm"
target=_top>http://abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm</A><BR>Privacy
information: <A
href="http://abc.net.au/privacy.htm"
target=_top>http://abc.net.au/privacy.htm</A><BR></CENTER><BR>
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End of phi-@topica.com digest, issue 122
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