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No to Glue-in Anchors
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Derek Marshall
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Aug 21, 2003 01:49 PDT
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Glue-ins are also just a total pain in the ass to place. Total mission. I
have sort of given it up....exept on week ends when I can't find a climbing
partner and have time to burn.
I'm not incouraging glueing at all.
Add to the list of negatives concerning glueing
1. weight of extra gear ('U'bolts and glue gun heavy)
2. Keeping glue of climbing gear a mission
3. Time taken to clean holes
4. Extra time in general
5. Routes can't be climbed imediatly
6. Extra kit to forget at home
The pig tailes and chain that the UIAA is proposing could be attached to
normal hangers. They don't have to be attached to 'P' bolts.
Cheers for now Derek Marshall
-----Original Message-----
From: Joffrey Hyman <jof-@yahoo.com>
To: sabol-@topica.com <sabol-@topica.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [BOLTS] The Way Forward
| | In general glue-in bolts are wrought with problems and
installation is often tricky and inconsistent too. The
one thing that is still unknown about all glue tpes is
how long they last, 1 year of high usage, 2 ,5?
In my experience and from the testing I have done I
would recommend Hilti expansion bolts in most (but not
all) rock types with lower-off hangers. These may be
slightly expensive but are totally foolproof to place
and should oulast the bolt. Metolius supplies these
and I'm sure an equivalent more cost-effective option
could be made locally.
With these the following risks (risks to ours & other
climbers lives) can be avoided:
- glue not bonding due to being too old or expired or
having been exposed to too much heat (we have had
failed batches from Hilti & UPat due to this reason)
Only in testing did we discover this!
- improper installation (glue not well mixed,
inconsistent quanties mixed)
- glue not set (bolts moved before glue cured.)
- messy installations
- glue becoming brittle
- glue bond breaking after a high impact fall or shock
force
etc.
- the wrong glue being used for the rock (eg. certain
Upat glues are good in soft sandstone but poor in hard
sandstone and visa versa with Hilti)
I generally see too many problems with glue-in bolts.
After all the testing I did, I changed many of my
viewpoints on bolts.
--- Derek Marshall <mars-@reworkafrica.co.za>
wrote: >
| | -----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Brown <sdbr-@mweb.co.za>
To: sabol-@topica.com <sabol-@topica.com>
Date: Monday, August 18, 2003 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
No. Helmut Microys' (UIAA) system is the following:
"TWO BOLTS + CHAIN + TWO RINGS (ONE CONNECTED TO THE
OTHER)
| | | | THE USE OF TWO RINGS PREVENTS THE ROPE FROM
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RUBBING ON THE ROCK AND
GETTING
| | | | PINCHED.
GLUE-IN ANCHORS ONLY FOR ALL APPLICATIONS. THINK
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LIFE-CYCLE COSTS."
Unfortunatly not very clearly stated. On further
investigation he reveiled
that he was not recomending Stuart's system at all.
Not even similar. He
sent me 3 options. 1. Glue in 'P' bolts with two
links from each
2. Glue in 'P'bolt
with non thread pig
tail
3. Glue in 'P'bolt
with non thread welded
pig tail (exactly the same as the pig tail that we
placed at the top of the
grage 10 on 'Lovers Walk' in Montagu if you would
like to have a lok at
one).
The file Helmut Microys sent is large, so I won't
send it to the forum, but
would be pleased to send it to all who would like
it. It is really
intresting.
If we were really so intrested in bolting safety we
should be using glue in
'P' bolts. After all this is what they use in Europe
and they therefore must
be the best option. I propose that we ask the
Mountian Club to re- bolt all
the routes in South Africa using 'P' bolts. Dig!
Dig! We have to make them
squeal.
Cheers for now Derek Marshall
| | LOOKS LIKE THE SYSTEM I RECOMMEND, AS FOR THE BOLTS
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BEING NEXT TO ONE
| | ANOTHER, THE TREND IS IN SERIES IN EUROPE AND THIS
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MAKES SENCE. THE MAIN
| | BOLT IS LOADED FULLY AND THE SECOND IS THERE AS
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BACK UP. THE DOUBLE RING
| | COULD BE EXPENSIVE BUT, FLATENING THE HANGER A BIT
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AND PLACING IT WITH THE
| | BOLT HOLE ON TOP GIVES THE SAME EFFECT AS THE
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FADERS HANGER AND ONLY ONE
| | MAILON IS NECESSARY SO THE ROPE DOES NOT GET
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SQUASHED AGAINST THE ROCK.
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LOOKS LIKE THIS COULD BE THE WAY FORWARD.
STUART
----------
| | Von: "Helmut F. Microys Ph. D."
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<micr-@telusplanet.net>
| | | | An: sabol-@topica.com
Betreff: Re: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
Datum: Son, 17. Aug 2003 0:38 Uhr
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| | THE FOLLOWING ARE COMMENTS THAT REFLECT THE
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THINKING OF THE UIAA SAFETY
| | | | COMMISSION FOR TOP ANCHORS OF ONE-PITCH SPORT
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CLIMBING ROUTES
| | | |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joffrey Hyman" <li-@saclimb.co.za>
To: <sabol-@topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:53 PM
Subject: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
| | Post from Derek Marshall
Please can I have some input on preferred top
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anchor systems. And
| | | | | | comments on below:
A. Systems which require threading
1. Hanger + single ring/link
2. Hanger + double ring/link
3. Hanger + multiple rings/link
4. Hanger + 'D' shackle
5. Threaded eye nuts
6. Double short chain directly bolted to face
7. 6mm thick hanger with rounded edges
8. Glued in 'P' bolts
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TWO BOLTS + CHAIN + TWO RINGS (ONE CONNECTED TO
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THE OTHER)
| | | | THE USE OF TWO RINGS PREVENTS THE ROPE FROM
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RUBBING ON THE ROCK AND
GETTING
| | | | PINCHED.
GLUE-IN ANCHORS ONLY FOR ALL APPLICATIONS. THINK
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LIFE-CYCLE COSTS.
| | | | | |
B. Systems which require no untying to thread
1. Hanger + pig tail
2. Single pig tail direct to the face
4. Double pig tail direct to face
5. Chain direct to wall connected to Stainless
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crab on hanger
| | | | | | 6. 6mm thick hanger with clipable hole for rope
7. Double cold shuts
8. Double short chain fixed direct to face,
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ending with steel screw
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THE PROBLEM HERE IS WHETHER THERE CAN BE
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ACCIDENTAL UNCLIPPING OF THE
ROPE,
| | | | IF THE CLIMBER GOES HIGHER THAN THE ANCHOR. AT
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LEAST TWO FATALITIES WITH
A
| | | | CERTAIN PRODUCT IN EUROPE. CHECK THE POSSIBLITY
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OF THIS HAPPENING WITH
THE
| | | | DESIGN YOU PLAN TO USE
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C. Single bolt systems as apposed to the current
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SA fashion of 2 bolt
| | | |
YOU SHOULD HAVE REDUNDENCY IN SUCH A SYSTEM AND
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NOT DEPEND ON ONLY ONE
| | | | ANCHOR
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D. So what are the most important components of
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a successful top anchor
| | | | | | system? Any comments please.
1. Price
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SHOULD NOT MATTER TOO MUCH, IF YOU LOOK AT
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LIFE-CYCLE COSTS
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NOT A PROBLEM WITH A PROPERLY SIZED ANCHOR
DON'T UNDERSTAND
STAINLESS STEEL. IN THE INTERIOR (FIVE km FROM
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THE COAST) 304 MAY DO IT.
| | | | IN THE BETWEEN AREA (UP TO ONE TO TWO km FROM THE
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COAST) COULD USE 316L
(EN
| | | | 1.4432, WHICH HAS HIGHER Mo CONTENT) OR 317L.
IN COASTAL RANGES USE TITANIUM, NICKEL ALLOYS
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SUCH AS INCONEL 625 OR
| | | | HASTELLOY C, AUSTENITIC STEELS SUCH AS 254 SMO OR
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654 SMO, DUPLEX STEEL
| | | | SUCH AS 2205. CHECK OUT AVAILABILITY, PRICE AND
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MANUFACTURING METHODS
| | | | | | 5. Not causing rope damage i.e.. twisting or
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abrasion
| | | | SOLVED BY PROPER DESIGN OR DOUBLE RING METHOD
| | 6. Number of bolts in system
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MINIMUM TWO
| | 7. Off setting / distributing force
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DON'T UNDERSTAND. BOLTS ARE GENERALLY PLACED
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SIDE-BY SIDE, BUT COULD BE
IN
| | | | SERIES, IF PROPERLY DESIGNED
FOLLOW MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS
| | 9. End user process education (education on how
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to safely thread)
| | | | SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE FALLEN OFF (BEEN KILLED)
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DURING THIS PROCESS. VERY
| | | | IMPORTANT
GENERALLY NOT A PROBLEM ON ONE-PITCH CLIMBS
TITANIUM BOLTS SEE www.ushba.com. FOR OTHER
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"COASTAL MATERIALS" YOU HAVE
TO
| | | | MANUFACTURE YOURSELF.
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E. Other constructive coments, ideas and imput.
I am looking for imput from the actule bolters.
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If you haven't bolted 5
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