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Re: The Way Forward
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Helmut F. Microys Ph. D.
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Aug 21, 2003 07:40 PDT
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Anyone can place a bolt in Europe. People are not assigned to do the job. I
know of one area (Calanques) where a team actually replaces (not places)
bolts on a regular bases because of the corrosion.
Glue ins are placed in perfectly good rock, be it limestone or igneous rock.
I believe the main reason is life cycle costs. The other reason is that
staples can only be glued. These are common at belays (more than one party
can clip) and rappel anchors.
By the way, I am not saying that all routes are re-equipped with glue ins
(nobody places glue ins on the first ascent). There were several routes in
Switzerland, for instance, which we did last summer, which were recently
re-equipped with expansion bolts.
There may be too much concern about the life span of glue. Keep in mind that
the producers of these bonding agent do make accelerated test to check this
out. By the way, don't blame Petzl for the glue. They make the bolts and get
the glue from other manufacturers.
I also agree that it is a pain to place glue ins, particularly in
overhanging terrain. However, it is my firm conviction that it is the only
way to go in coastal areas. Not only that, you will also need to use better
materials than the commonly sold stainless steels (such as 304).
Helmut Microys.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Brown" <sdbr-@mweb.co.za>
To: <sabol-@topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [BOLTS] The Way Forward
| | The problem with glue ins is, not just anyone can place them. In Europe
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only
| | those who are assigned to do the job can place bolts, we do not want that
here. Therefor I see glue ins as not the perfect system. How much will the
system in Lovers Walk cost? This seems a good system, but not rated.
Glue ins are great for soft limestone, hard thin outer crust soft crumbly
inside as found in most areas in France and Italy. This is why pockets
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form
| | they have to use glue ins, they have no option. Normal bolts do not work,
but we have the perfect rock for normal bolts (maybe not in Harrismith),
they are also cheaper (normal bolts that is), I think.
Stuart
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| | Von: Derek Marshall <mars-@reworkafrica.co.za>
An: sabol-@topica.com
Betreff: [BOLTS] The Way Forward
Datum: Die, 19. Aug 2003 10:20 Uhr
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-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Brown <sdbr-@mweb.co.za>
To: sabol-@topica.com <sabol-@topica.com>
Date: Monday, August 18, 2003 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
No. Helmut Microys' (UIAA) system is the following:
"TWO BOLTS + CHAIN + TWO RINGS (ONE CONNECTED TO THE OTHER)
| | | | THE USE OF TWO RINGS PREVENTS THE ROPE FROM RUBBING ON THE ROCK AND
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GETTING
| | | | PINCHED.
GLUE-IN ANCHORS ONLY FOR ALL APPLICATIONS. THINK LIFE-CYCLE COSTS."
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Unfortunatly not very clearly stated. On further investigation he
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reveiled
| | | | that he was not recomending Stuart's system at all. Not even similar. He
sent me 3 options. 1. Glue in 'P' bolts with two links from each
2. Glue in 'P'bolt with non thread pig
tail
3. Glue in 'P'bolt with non thread
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welded
| | | | pig tail (exactly the same as the pig tail that we placed at the top of
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the
| | | | grage 10 on 'Lovers Walk' in Montagu if you would like to have a lok at
one).
The file Helmut Microys sent is large, so I won't send it to the forum,
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but
| | | | would be pleased to send it to all who would like it. It is really
intresting.
If we were really so intrested in bolting safety we should be using glue
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in
| | | | 'P' bolts. After all this is what they use in Europe and they therefore
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must
| | | | be the best option. I propose that we ask the Mountian Club to re- bolt
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all
| | | | the routes in South Africa using 'P' bolts. Dig! Dig! We have to make
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them
| | | | squeal.
Cheers for now Derek Marshall
| | LOOKS LIKE THE SYSTEM I RECOMMEND, AS FOR THE BOLTS BEING NEXT TO ONE
ANOTHER, THE TREND IS IN SERIES IN EUROPE AND THIS MAKES SENCE. THE MAIN
BOLT IS LOADED FULLY AND THE SECOND IS THERE AS BACK UP. THE DOUBLE RING
COULD BE EXPENSIVE BUT, FLATENING THE HANGER A BIT AND PLACING IT WITH
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THE
| | | | | | BOLT HOLE ON TOP GIVES THE SAME EFFECT AS THE FADERS HANGER AND ONLY ONE
MAILON IS NECESSARY SO THE ROPE DOES NOT GET SQUASHED AGAINST THE ROCK.
LOOKS LIKE THIS COULD BE THE WAY FORWARD.
STUART
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| | Von: "Helmut F. Microys Ph. D." <micr-@telusplanet.net>
An: sabol-@topica.com
Betreff: Re: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
Datum: Son, 17. Aug 2003 0:38 Uhr
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| | THE FOLLOWING ARE COMMENTS THAT REFLECT THE THINKING OF THE UIAA
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SAFETY
| | | | | | | | COMMISSION FOR TOP ANCHORS OF ONE-PITCH SPORT CLIMBING ROUTES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joffrey Hyman" <li-@saclimb.co.za>
To: <sabol-@topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:53 PM
Subject: [BOLTS] Top Anchor Systems
| | Post from Derek Marshall
Please can I have some input on preferred top anchor systems. And
comments on below:
A. Systems which require threading
1. Hanger + single ring/link
2. Hanger + double ring/link
3. Hanger + multiple rings/link
4. Hanger + 'D' shackle
5. Threaded eye nuts
6. Double short chain directly bolted to face
7. 6mm thick hanger with rounded edges
8. Glued in 'P' bolts
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TWO BOLTS + CHAIN + TWO RINGS (ONE CONNECTED TO THE OTHER)
THE USE OF TWO RINGS PREVENTS THE ROPE FROM RUBBING ON THE ROCK AND
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GETTING
| | | | PINCHED.
GLUE-IN ANCHORS ONLY FOR ALL APPLICATIONS. THINK LIFE-CYCLE COSTS.
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B. Systems which require no untying to thread
1. Hanger + pig tail
2. Single pig tail direct to the face
4. Double pig tail direct to face
5. Chain direct to wall connected to Stainless crab on hanger
6. 6mm thick hanger with clipable hole for rope
7. Double cold shuts
8. Double short chain fixed direct to face, ending with steel screw
gate
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THE PROBLEM HERE IS WHETHER THERE CAN BE ACCIDENTAL UNCLIPPING OF THE
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ROPE,
| | | | IF THE CLIMBER GOES HIGHER THAN THE ANCHOR. AT LEAST TWO FATALITIES
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WITH
| | | | A
| | | | CERTAIN PRODUCT IN EUROPE. CHECK THE POSSIBLITY OF THIS HAPPENING WITH
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THE
| | | | DESIGN YOU PLAN TO USE
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C. Single bolt systems as apposed to the current SA fashion of 2 bolt
systems
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YOU SHOULD HAVE REDUNDENCY IN SUCH A SYSTEM AND NOT DEPEND ON ONLY ONE
ANCHOR
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D. So what are the most important components of a successful top
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anchor
| | | | | | | | | | system? Any comments please.
1. Price
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SHOULD NOT MATTER TOO MUCH, IF YOU LOOK AT LIFE-CYCLE COSTS
NOT A PROBLEM WITH A PROPERLY SIZED ANCHOR
DON'T UNDERSTAND
STAINLESS STEEL. IN THE INTERIOR (FIVE km FROM THE COAST) 304 MAY DO
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IT.
| | | | | | | | IN THE BETWEEN AREA (UP TO ONE TO TWO km FROM THE COAST) COULD USE
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316L
| | | | (EN
| | | | 1.4432, WHICH HAS HIGHER Mo CONTENT) OR 317L.
IN COASTAL RANGES USE TITANIUM, NICKEL ALLOYS SUCH AS INCONEL 625 OR
HASTELLOY C, AUSTENITIC STEELS SUCH AS 254 SMO OR 654 SMO, DUPLEX
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STEEL
| | | | | | | | SUCH AS 2205. CHECK OUT AVAILABILITY, PRICE AND MANUFACTURING METHODS
| | 5. Not causing rope damage i.e.. twisting or abrasion
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SOLVED BY PROPER DESIGN OR DOUBLE RING METHOD
| | 6. Number of bolts in system
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MINIMUM TWO
| | 7. Off setting / distributing force
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DON'T UNDERSTAND. BOLTS ARE GENERALLY PLACED SIDE-BY SIDE, BUT COULD
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BE
| | | | IN
| | | | SERIES, IF PROPERLY DESIGNED
FOLLOW MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS
| | 9. End user process education (education on how to safely thread)
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SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE FALLEN OFF (BEEN KILLED) DURING THIS PROCESS. VERY
IMPORTANT
GENERALLY NOT A PROBLEM ON ONE-PITCH CLIMBS
TITANIUM BOLTS SEE www.ushba.com. FOR OTHER "COASTAL MATERIALS" YOU
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HAVE
| | | | TO
| | | | MANUFACTURE YOURSELF.
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E. Other constructive coments, ideas and imput.
I am looking for imput from the actule bolters. If you haven't bolted
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5
| | | | | | | | | | routes in the last 2 years please don't respond. No offence.
Please respond to mars-@reworkafrica.co.za
Thanks very much
Derek Marshall
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HELMUT MICROYS
Bolt Safe or Bolt Not!
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Bolt Safe or Bolt Not!
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Bolt Safe or Bolt Not!
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Bolt Safe or Bolt Not!
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